Call of Leadership

The Call of Leadership

Mike Laing left a safe career as a school teacher to become integral with Mawby Sparkling Wines.  Then he took it a step further when he and his brother started Big Little Wines.  In this episode, we talk about his leap from school teacher to wine maker.  Also, how does the average person get into wines?  We cover all that.

Show Notes:

Mawby Sparkling Wine Website

Bubble Head Club

Big Little Wine Website


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Cliff Duvernois (00:00):
Hello everyone and welcome to the call of leadership podcast, the podcast where we interview local leaders in our Michigan community to hear their stories, get their advice so that we can be better leaders for ourselves, our families, and our community. I am your host cliff. Do then law. And today promises to be a fun conversation. Mark Twain once said, too much of anything is bad but too much. Champagne is just right. And yes, ladies and gentlemen, today we are talking about bubbly. My guest is a partner and director at Mawby Sparkling in beautiful Traverse City and along with his brother, he is the co founder of Big Little Wines. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show Mike Laing. Mike, how are ya?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (00:44):
Great cliff. Happy to be here. Thanks for having me.

Cliff Duvernois (00:47):
No problem. And thanks for carving time for us out of your busy schedule. We really do appreciate it. Why don’t you tell us a little bit about where you’re from?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (00:56):
Yeah, absolutely. So my brother and I were born and raised in Ann Arbor, Michigan. I was born in the late seventies. I guess I’m sort of on the fringe fringes of Gen X there. We grew up in Ann Arbor. I went to high school and then I left, I went to school college in Ohio, Miami of Ohio to study math education and got my degree and started teaching outside of Chicago and Barrington, Illinois for four years. Then I went overseas to Abu Dhabi for a couple of years to teach high school math. Then got sort of lured back to Northern Michigan. And by back, I mean, you know, I visited this area as a kid and my grandparents had a place in Frankfort, Michigan. So my family visited, you know, during the summers. But I wanted to try something different and teaching for awhile and wanted to take a stab at working in the vineyards, seeing what that was all about. And so I’ve ventured, ventured back, ventured back to Michigan and up North.

Cliff Duvernois (02:05):
Why did you go into education in the first place?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (02:11):
I kind of knew when I was, I don’t know, 17 or so that I, I really enjoyed math first of all. But the kids, kids even, I mean more than math, I mean I guess my brother is actually quite a bit better at math than me. But I, I just, I like, I like the classroom. I, I like the energy of younger people. I think it, it’s, it’s really fun and their, their, their sense of humor keeps things light. It’s, it’s a different, a different day. Every day. I just had a kind of a call to be in the classroom and teach people math.

Cliff Duvernois (02:57):
That’s a little bit ironic because on an podcast I was talking to a school superintendent who also called being an education, a calling. She referred to that word. So it’s interesting that I hear a lot of teachers describe it as a calling.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (03:12):
I mean, to dig a little bit deeper into that, I was not actually that great at math and add, sat down with me regularly and basically kind of sh, you know, shepherded my skills and then taught me. And I thought that was pretty powerful. And I don’t know that that whole, that whole process sort of resonated with me and and, and that’s, that’s really why I decided to go into education. I think I, I just had that great experience, you know, from, from somebody that I admired teaching me. So.

Cliff Duvernois (03:48):
Okay. Now you, you were teaching outside of Chicago and then you went over to the middle East. Wha what was precipitating an incident that made that happen?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (04:00):
I think it was a breakup actually. I wanted to, no, I’m kidding, kidding, sort of not, but you know, I, I was young than living in Chicago for a while. You know, my friends for the most part had significant others. I didn’t I was sort of burned out on, on Chicago, didn’t have any attachment really to, to any particular place, frankly. So I went to a job fair, which is kind of how over to overseas teaching works. That’s kind of how you, you, you interview ’em at these huge job fairs where you know, various schools from across the world come to one place and you, you interview with multiple schools over the course of a weekend. And I never thought I’d end up where I ended up, but I was open to going almost anywhere. So I, I’m really happy about that whole experience. I mean I, I reflect back on that all the time. The people I met, the places I traveled, I’m really glad I took advantage of that opportunity. It helped shape me into who I am

Cliff Duvernois (05:07):
Now in the middle East. Did you happen to pick up any Arabic or Farsi while you were there?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (05:12):
Shrewish way. I mean very minimal, very minimal. So that’s a, that’s a hard language to learn. Complete opposite of, you know, Latin based languages. So

Cliff Duvernois (05:23):
You’re teaching overseas for a certain length of time. What brought, what brought you back to the States? I was a little home

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (05:32):
Sick frankly. I taught over there for two years and that was a little homesick. I also, I just kind of wanted to try something different. Something other than teaching, I thought that it would be easy to go back into teaching if I took a break and didn’t like whatever new newness awaited me because well with overseas teaching and math specifically there, there are a lot of opportunities or there were. So I wasn’t worried about about finding a job in education if something didn’t work out. But at the same time my parents had an opportunity, you know, in a beautiful place in Northern Michigan. They were growing grapes at that time and I don’t know, it just seemed like a good opportunity to try something different.

Cliff Duvernois (06:23):
You’re coming back to Michigan and you start getting into the wine business and what, what kind of drew you to that?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (06:31):
Well, my folks did they, they so in the early two thousands, they purchased some property in Leelanau County, Lake Leelanau specifically and in the mid two thousands, like 2005, they started selling their fruit to Larry Mawby where I am today. You know, Mawby mobbed winery. The opportunity to work with my dad on the farm was there and I had, I did that in the summers because as an educator I had summers off. So when I taught in Chicago I would come back North and work with my dad and mom and the vineyard in the summers. I sorta missed that. I still, I still did that when I lived in the middle East as well cause I had summers off there too. So I would come home. But I guess they pulled me back with that opportunity. I was about, I think I was 28 when I moved back here.

Cliff Duvernois (07:23):
Now with regards to Moby wines, they seem to specialize in sparkling wines. Why did they decide to just do that?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (07:34):
There’s a lot of reasons for that. And so Larry Mawby grew up in, well in this area, but I mean he was born in and the Rockford area by grand Rapids, born into a farming family, specifically apples and cherries. And he moved up here. I don’t know specifically when, but when he was a boy and you know, work works. I mean he’s, geez, he’s been in charge of orchard crews, you know, since he was probably 12 years old. But then he broke away from the family in his late twenties. But actually he still worked for the family farm to sorta help him get started with the whole vineyard operation, planted some vines in 73 made some, started making wines in the late seventies. And then experimented with sparkling wine in the mid eighties. And then by the mid nineties, he decided, look, I mean he, he said, he said to himself, this is really, I believe the best style for the area as far as the varieties we can grow, the weather conditions we have.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (08:44):
So I’m going to focus on sparkling wine and bill and be the best at that that I can be. And that was a branding decision that still sticks with us today. And it’s really how we’re known to the greater wine consumer, wine consuming and wine making community to dig into why, like I said, there’s a short growing season here. We don’t have a lot of heat. We can’t ripen the fruit for quality table wine year in and year out. I mean last year was a good example of that. Fruit really didn’t move much past 20 bricks and that’s not great for table wine but it is fine for sparkling wine. So we pick earlier because we want less sugar and higher acidity. The reason we want less sugar because when we ferment our primary fermentation, we want low alcohol because ultimately we’re going to reform it and use that.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (09:50):
We pitch for sparkling the second time when we pitched use for the second fermentation. If there’s too high alcohol in the base wine, they’ll die. They’ll create an environment that’s too toxic for themselves and die. So we want low alcohol, high acidity. We also, another reason that, that we focus on sparkling is we have access to some labor that’s otherwise tied up later in the season for, for table wine. So, you know, we have a a bigger, a bigger pool of labor to draw from when we need to pick cause everything’s handpicked for sparkling wine. In the past we’ve, I mean these are some other minor reasons, but not to be ignored. We’ve sort of picked before migratory bird patterns that’s come through later in the fall. The juvenile starlings tend to flag a little bit after we pick for sparkling, which is cool cause they can devastate a crop in a short amount of time.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (10:56):
Are you talking about like eating the grapes? Yeah, they’ll eat the grapes. Especially, especially especially the red grapes because they can see those a lot better from the sky. They can do a lot of damage in a short amount of time. If you’ve ever, you’ve ever seen huge flocks of starlings, they, they, they make me cringe a bit. But to, to the normal person. I’m sure it’s, it’s a beautiful sight. But so anyway, those are a variety of reasons why the decision was made. Since we don’t need high sugar, we can crop heavier, which is really nice because we have vines that can’t crop very heavy anyway because of our growing conditions. So these are, these are, these are some of the major reasons that Larry Mawby decided to focus on sparkling. And I guess maybe the biggest one is that we can grow Pinot noir and Chardonnay, which are classic champagne varieties and they do well here.

Cliff Duvernois (11:59):
And I will admit I am a total sucker for Pinot noir.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (12:03):
Yeah, it’s a, it’s kind of a pain in the ass to grow. Well it’s a major pan. They asked to grow, let’s be honest. But it’s it’s, it’s, it’s, it’s great. It’s a great variety. Some of the world’s finest wines, you know, from champagne, burgundy are made from that variety. So,

Cliff Duvernois (12:22):
So let me go back to something here cause you made a comment before, and it’s a term that I’ve never heard of before. When you said that you don’t make it past 20 bricks, what does a brick

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (12:29):
One brick is? Well, brick is how we measure sugar in, in grape must sow in grape juice. And I believe apples are measured using that scale as well. Probably other fruits. So we’re watching bricks, readings, we measure bricks with a refractometer. So we take a little bit of juice, put that on a refractometer, hold it to the light. And the basically that refractometer tells us about how many bricks of sugar are in the grape sample. And one brick is about 10 grams per liter of sugar. So 20 bricks is about 200 grams of sugar per liter of liquid, which is a lot. That’s a lot of sugar in a small package, which is one reason why grapes are really nice for wine production. They pack a lot of sugar, you know, per volume. The other reason is they have a lot of a nice blend of acids that a lot of other fruits don’t have. But anyway, that that’s what bricks are one Oh one degree bricks is about 10 grams per liter of sugar.

Cliff Duvernois (13:47):
And you were talking about the, the grapes that you use when you’re making the sparkling wine has to go through two fermentation processes. And it’s a, during the second fermentation process to that, we actually, that’s when we actually see the little bubbles appear, right?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (14:03):
Yeah. So we don’t carbonate any of our bottled products. And that’s a big point of difference because a lot of bubbly on the market is carbonated, but we believe a better bubble develops from a second fermentation in a closed vessel. Now we do that a couple of different ways. We refer meant either in a pressure tank. So we have wine that we’ve fermented once while we build up a yeast starter, add sugar and put that wine in a pressure tank and seal it up. And the fermentation couple byproducts are alcohol, heat and CO2. So the CO2 is not going anywhere. It’s trapped in the tank and dissolves into solution or we refer meant the classic way in the bottle itself, which actually we’re doing today at our production facilities. So I had to adjust our schedule given the current climate health wise this is, this is being recorded during the, during the Corona virus pandemics. So anyway, we’ve adjusted our sellers schedule and we’re Touraj bottling today as what we call it when we put the wine in the bottle to read from it. And then it ages in the bottle on the East for one to seven years depending on the product. So

Cliff Duvernois (15:19):
Speaking of product, my fiance and I, we always make it a point to stop by a mobi when we’re in Trevor city. And it always cracks me up because the, you know, the name of some of the bottles that you have in there is, you know, one of them, you’re your sweeter sparkling wine is called Detroit. And there’s another one in there that everybody clamors for and that one’s called sex. I happen to be a big fan of the one that’s called us. Tell us, tell us a little bit about how these, how these names come around. And I’d be, how do you guys, you know, sit down and, and you know, drink a brick, drinks is perfectly in line and say to yourself, ah, I think we’ll call this sex. Well, I don’t tell that

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (15:57):
Story as well as Larry does.

Cliff Duvernois (16:00):

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (16:01):
But let me just give you the overall gist of, of what are our brands sort of represents. And that I guess is reflected in the naming of the wines. We, we, we take what’s in the bottle extremely seriously, but we want, we also recognize that people want to have fun. And sparkling wine is fun. And so our, our, our name, the names of our wines are meant to reflect our personality, the wines, personality, the fact that, you know, we, we don’t really want to take life too seriously, but the contents of, you know, of the bottle are where we focus our energy on. And the color of the, there’s, the packaging is colorful, it’s useful, it’s fresh, it’s, it’s exciting. We want people to, to hang out with us. We want to draw them in and yeah, we want people to celebrate each day with, with Mavi. And to us that means making, we’re making wines fun and accessible.

Cliff Duvernois (17:03):
You know, that’s actually a good point because the, the, the one thing is I, I’m, I’m already big into wines and I, there’s a lot of white wines. I like a lot of red wines. I like a lot of bubbly that I like. What would be your advice about someone who is thinking to themselves, you know, I would like to, I would like to get into it. What would be like your advice to help them? Just like to get started? Cause you know, and even today we’re at the grocery store and there’s literally hundreds of different bottles on a shelf and it can be completely overwhelming. So what would be, what would be your advice to get somebody started?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (17:38):
Wine shops now have free tastings. Either that’s during the week on Fridays or Saturdays, you know, pop in and see what bottles are open, see what they’re tasting, talk to them, try and pick their brain. If you find a group of people maybe through that wine shop or through online forums that like wine, getting together with groups of people and trying wines is probably the best way because everybody brings a bottle. There’s 15 people, you’re trying 15 wines and you can try them blind. See, see what, see what the price point does to the psyche or because you know, you’re trying them blind, you know, you might like a $10 bottle as opposed to a $25 bottle. I have visit, visit wine regions. If it comes to that point where the excitement is spurred visit wine regions. Talk to people that are in the business that are passionate about what they do. There are a lot of wine regions now that are adjacent almost everybody’s community. Frankly. Go talk to the people that live and breathe wine and, and see, see, see what, what excites them and what they’re doing. I don’t know. Those are some suggestions I have, I guess to, to explore for folks. Maybe there’s a lot of wine clubs online for relatively affordable costs. That’s another great, great way to try out a wide range of, of different wines to see what you like.

Cliff Duvernois (19:08):
No, mobi has a, a group, right? The bubble heads,

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (19:13):
The bubble heads fizz club members. Yeah, absolutely. That’s a huge group of ambassadors. Those are the people that, a lot of them have been with us since the beginning summer so that that group continues to grow. So obviously there are newcomers that are drawn by either the experience they’ve had or or bubbly that they’ve tried from us that they’ve purchased away from the taste room. But yeah, those, that, that group of people is critical to Mavi to our story, to how we grow. And yeah, those people tell their friends, those people buy our wines and restaurants, wine shops. And so we we don’t take their support lightly. We’ve got a separate room dedicated to them in our tasting room. We’ve got the fizz hall. So if you’re a wine club member, you visit us. We have a, if your own private room and there are other perks on property as well as off property for those members.

Cliff Duvernois (20:08):
So I think I’m going to have to get on that list. Cause like I said, every, every time my fiance and I are in Trevor city, we are always at Moby and we always walk out the door with, you know, anywhere between four to six bottles. So I think that’s definitely something we’re going to have to check out.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (20:23):
Yeah. Well we appreciate that cliff. Thank you very much. And absolutely. I mean, so here’s, I mean the thing about the wine club is those folks have access to small limited release wines that they have access to those products first that we release. We release limited, limited available wines and new release wines to people first. So yeah, that’s a group good group to be a part of. Like I said, you know, when you visit, there are other perks. There are other perks on shipping discounts. It’s it, you know, there’s no fee to join. We’re basically asking for folks to commit to a minimum of a case a year. That’s two shipments, one in April, one in September, six bottles each. And totally customizable. If you don’t like, if you know you don’t like a wine that we’ve suggested, you can swap it out. You can add big little wines, which I think we’ll talk about in a few minutes. But we can add big little wines which are mostly non sparkling wines to your order. So there’s a lot of perk.

Cliff Duvernois (21:31):
Yeah. And the reason why I say that is my fiance, we have this tradition where every Saturday night we have what’s called champagne Saturday and we crack open a bottle of bubbly every Saturday night we get cheese, we get meats, we get crackers, and we just celebrate the week. And, and you mentioned something before during the interview about helping people do to be able to celebrate. And a lot of times found that people will only like crack open a bottle of bubbly when there’s some big important event. And my whole philosophy is, man, every day is a big event. If you’re still alive, that’s reason to celebrate. So we make an appointment every Saturday night to crack open, bubbly. So that’s why when we’re in Trevor city, we always stock up.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (22:11):
That’s awesome. That’s a good philosophy and I certainly can’t argue with it and

Cliff Duvernois (22:19):

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (22:19):
But also I guess I would say that you know, with, with, with the, I mean sparkling wine is a growing category. A MITs a greater wine market that did actually lose some traction last year nationally, but sparkling wine is, is being looked at as a, as a food friendly option. I mean, they’re lower alcohol wines, they’re fun and they’re, they’re not just for, for special occasions. And I think people are, are using them as such. And that’s great. We like that.

Cliff Duvernois (22:57):
You and your brother actually founded big little wines. What, what was the, what was the driving decision behind that?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (23:06):
So I started at Mawby in 2007. Just finished my 13th harvest here. And in 2009, my brother had not yet moved back here, but I did purchase some fruit from an old mission vineyard, old mission peninsula vineyard and made some wine. It wasn’t outstanding. So I waited until 2010 and my brother and I picked and processed some more fruit and sort of blended that with the 2009 fruit and started big little wines. Started with a one sparkling wine and one non sparkling wine. We started with a peanut gree called crayfish and then a non sparkling wine called tire swing and sort of started adding products every year after that. So what, why did we start? Well, I, I guess we just sorta wanted to put our own stamp on, on Leelanau peninsula wine making. We wanted to make some wines that others weren’t making stylistically, you know, using varieties that, that others using varieties to blend that others other people in the area weren’t necessarily blending. And I can get into those in a minute if you want. But we, we, we, we basically started big little wines to tell people our story. Put our own stamp on, on Michigan wine-making.

Cliff Duvernois (24:25):
And I know that. Talk about the world of wine, and I mentioned this before, when you know, you go into a store or something and there’s just, there’s just bottles of wine up all over the place or what, what, what do you guys focus on or what do you strive to do to make a big little wines stand out in this sea of competing vineyards?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (24:46):
That’s a good question. Both for Mawby and for big little, we put a lot of time and energy in to the label design and the story. All of the big little wines are named after childhood memories that my brother and I share, some of which relate to Anarbor, some of which relate to the Frankfurt area, all of which relate to us growing up together. From that perspective, it’s really easy for us to talk about those wine names. So for example, underdog Treehouse tire swing recess, these are things that resonate with pretty much anybody and their childhood, frankly. And so they’re common memories that people can get together around, over, over wine and, and just reflect on I guess. And so there’s some consistency to our label design. We’ve got, you know, paint swash and illustrations. I dunno, they’re just, the labels are fun. They’re nostalgic. They’re, they’re who we are. So the conversation starters. Yeah. C3 Pino, we’ve got wine. We’re star Wars fans. We also, we, I mean, we own the trademark on that actually. We, yeah, we got that from Sean Combs actually. Puff daddy owned C3. He owned that trademark and he let it lapse and we, we nabbed it. And so we own that now.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (26:21):
Yeah. Anyway, that’s a, that’s one of our sparkling wines.

Cliff Duvernois (26:23):
You were in education, you have gotten into wine and you’re still there. What is it that, what is it that keeps you in the wine industry?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (26:34):
So, so first of all, I mean, one wine making is a, it’s a job. There are ups and downs, right? It’s not all sampling wine in the, with the sun hitting you. And it’s not a photo shoot every day. But I just want to, I want to make your listeners give them some, you know, give them some sort of sense of this. But what it is for me now is it’s, it’s a, it’s a family endeavor. It’s an endeavor that supports other families, right? Our employees are raising their families in this area with the support of Mawby. They’re a part of our, they’re part of our family. They’re, they’re really obviously vital to what we do. I guess I’m reflecting that on that specifically now in this difficult time. But I love working with them, working with my brother, my dad, and my mom. Larry’s awesome. All the employees here are really what keep me delighted to come to work to you today. But I will also say that it’s really cool to plant a vine, nurture a vine, prune a vine, watch it grow, harvest its fruit, and make something from that and bottle it and watch other people enjoy it. I mean, that in a nutshell is why those two things are kind of why I do what I do and what I love about it.

Cliff Duvernois (27:57):
I’ll tell you, one of my fantasies has always been to go to like a vineyard for a week or two during harvest and just participate, you know, just be, just be a part of that. Cause I’m, I’m very, I love wine. I really do. Whether it’s sparkling or not, I, I love it all. And that’s always been, what am I, what am I fantasies in the back of my head? Kind of like those dude ranches that they have only for veins

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (28:21):
That will give you a new perspective for sure and will likely make you enjoy wine even more. I didn’t know that was possible, but Hey, I’m a, I’m a big believer, so there you go. Yeah, you should, you should do that. There are, there are opportunities to do that up here. I mean, if you, if you, if you find a vineyard that you’re, you know, you develop a relationship with somebody like, like us or somebody else and you wanna you want to come work at harvest, we can, we can potentially make that happen. Maybe we can pretend it never hurts to ask lift. Oh Hey, you know what, you’re right. It never hurts to ask.

Cliff Duvernois (29:00):
I do have one question cause we were talking about names before that kind of represent your journey. How did you and your brother come up with the name? Big little wines?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (29:11):
It took us a long time. We, I don’t know, we bounced ideas off each other every night it seemed like the a text message or we generate lists, brainstorm lists and get together, throw that list away, come back another week, the different lists. And then one night I, I was just thinking, you know, big brother, a little brother. That’s basically what, that’s who we are. Most people have siblings they can relate to that story. Big little was born. It took us a long time to come up with that. But I think we ended in the right place.

Cliff Duvernois (29:50):
I think you do too, because you, the more I’ve, you know, when I’ve, when I told people that I was going to be interviewing you for the podcast, big little is something that everybody seems to really resonate with quickly.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (30:01):
Yeah. And we were asking Larry Mawby who, you know, I’ve learned a lot of what I know from marketing from him and just watching and listening to what he’s done with Mavi over the years. And we were bouncing all these ideas off him and he was, he said, that’s it. Like that’s, that’s it. You guys found the name. Like he knew, he knew immediately. So that was, you know, reassuring.

Cliff Duvernois (30:30):
Now has has Mawby bank a huge influence on you with regards to what it is that you guys do?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (30:36):
For sure. I mean, Larry Mawby taught me how to make sparkling wine table wines are something that we’ve sort of been learning over the years. Continue to learn more about. But yeah, absolutely. Larry Mawby is my mentor and you know, he’s somebody that pretty much the whole Northern Michigan wine industry looks up to, frankly, he’s helped out. A lot of people get started in the business. He kind of is Michigan wine really and a lot of ways, but certainly a role model for me and my brother as well.

Cliff Duvernois (31:08):
Wow. I, I always get bummed during this part of the interview because we’re nearing the end. If, if people want to, if people want to connect with you online, what’s the best way for them to, to find your, or to check out what it is that you’re doing?

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (31:22):
Yeah, so Mawby is at M-I-bubbly on Instagram and our website is Mawby.Wine and big little, big little wines that come and Big Little wines on Instagram and Facebook. So we’re, we’re out there. I would say that Big Little is a little less fresh on, on the, on the social. Mawby is updated a little more regularly. But anyway we’re, we’re both, we’re both doing cool stuff. Our wines are our passion and check us out

Cliff Duvernois (32:03):
And I really do appreciate you taking time out of your, out of your schedule to talk to us today.

Mike Laing, Mawby Sparkling Wine (32:09):
Oh, it was a pleasure. Thanks for having me, Cliff.