Dave Lorenz and his team at MEDC (Michigan Economic Development Corporation) were tasked to try and define Michigan. How do you do that? Learn more behind the thinking of the “Pure Michigan” campaign that resonated not only with every Michigander but will countless others across the US and the world.
Pure Michigan – Michigan.org
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Cliff Duvernois (00:11):
Ladies and gentlemen, welcome to the Call of Leadership podcast where we interview people from our Michigan community who answered the call of leadership. We’ll hear their powerful stories and get their advice so that we can be better leaders for ourselves, our family, and our community. I am your host cliff Dubin wide. Today’s guest has a resume that reads like a who’s who in Michigan business circles. He’s on the board of directors for the U S travel association, the national council of state tourism directors, the Trent Metro convention and visitors Bureau, the motor cities national heritage association. The list goes on, on and on, but you probably know him for the work that he and his staff had put into those commercials that permeate our favorite television shows. I’m talking about the pure Michigan campaign. Ladies and gentlemen, please welcome to the show, Dave Lorenz. Dave, how are you?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (01:02):
I’m doing okay. Thank you, cliff. You know, those resumes, you always have to wonder how much of that is true. But it’s it’s a pleasure to do what I do. I, I happen to lead a small team of 10 people at travel Michigan and then we get the assistance of several others at the Michigan economic development corporation. And then I’m really blessed to be able to work with people at the national level and statewide and local communities. So you know, it’s, it’s a team effort. I’m really happy to be able to, to work the way I do.
Cliff Duvernois (01:36):
Yeah. And I actually move in the world of marketing, so I’ve got some lovely marketing style questions for you about the pure Michigan campaign. But before we get into that, let’s take a little trip back in time. Why don’t you tell the audience where you’re from, where you grew up?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (01:54):
Yeah, sure. I’m actually, I grew up in a little town called Clover Ville. It’s a suburb of Fruit Port, I like to say, and everybody says, where is that? Basically it’s between Muskegon and Grand Haven and West Michigan, the lower peninsula. And I actually don’t live that far away from there right now. Live in Norton shores. Just, I don’t know, probably less than 10 miles away from where I grew up. Came back here after I attended Western Michigan university, studied communications there and after that I was in radio for several years and then as the radio business changed in ways I really didn’t like, you know, basically local control and ownership changing to more of a, a group ownership just, just didn’t like the way that was going. Went to Meijer corporation, great West Michigan owned and operated from a, worked for Fred Meijer, this very great man and his wonderful family and people who really understand the value of people in team and teamwork. Very blessed to be able to work for them. And in that, interestingly enough, led me to traveling about to 18 years ago, George Zimmerman was the travel director then and he was looking for somebody with my kind of strange background and he and I were able to work together for a long time and I really blessed for having that time to work with him. My mentor and my friend and I had been travel director for the last five years. Really happy to be doing what I’m doing.
Cliff Duvernois (03:23):
Now. You said that you studied at Western Michigan and you talked about how you went into radio. What was it that that intrigued you about media, about radio specifically that made you want to pursue that as a career?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (03:36):
Well, when I was in high school Fruitport high school, in fact, I, one of the the people who was just one of those people in your life that you meet along the way, that has a great impact on you. My speech teacher, Roger Scutter, just out of the, out of the blue, I just happened to be interacting with him on Facebook just today. So strange. I had to go through speech class like everybody else did. I was a shy high school kid. I was a stutterer still am technically. But I learned to deal with that and I was just shy. I couldn’t speak before groups and, and I had to S to pass that class. Well I almost got through the class. I didn’t do all the speeches I had to do and I’d become friends with, with Roger. And I figured, Oh, he’s still gonna pass me, you know, I did enough and then he failed me.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (04:18):
It’s the only class I ever flunked. And then during that time of taking it over again, he had put together kind of this radio TV program as part of the curriculum. And I really got the bug on that and learned to be comfortable speaking before groups and speaking in broadcast forum and doing TV and radio. And that led me to to want to do TV and radio as a career. That kind of brought me to where I am today. You know, you never know what’s, what failure is going to launch you into success in a totally different way. So I’m very thankful that I was flunked back in 11th grade or 10th grade, I guess it was in Freeport high school.
Cliff Duvernois (04:56):
That is awesome. Talk about turning a weakness into a strength. You know, I’m a big believer in skill stacking, so it’s kind of cool that you were able to take that experience from way back in high school and undoubtedly it has actually helped you throughout the career, throughout everything that you’ve done and really helped you to get your message out.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (05:19):
Yeah. Well, you know you never know what experiences are going to form who you become and basically all of them lead to who you will be in the future. And, and I just really was blessed to have found somebody like Roger who who, who noticed I was a young guy dealing with some issues of, you know, family life. My, my dad was then a practicing alcoholic. I didn’t really see him that much and I think I was really looking for you know, that kind of, that father type of or big brother type relationship. I found it in him and grew to trust him. So when he said, listen, this is something you can do, you need to have confidence in, in, and you can have confidence to get this done. Well, that really stuck with me as much as I knew my parents loved me and, and tried to nurture me in their own way. Sometimes you need that, that push from somebody who can look at you in a different way and you could look at them in a different way and say, well, that person really believes in me. I better live up to that belief. That’s, that’s really what I think, you know, got me going in and into the communications world and, and truly changed my life.
Cliff Duvernois (06:25):
You know, that actually seems to be a recurring theme with some of the guests that I have on this podcast. It seems that somebody else in their life along their path saw something in them that they did not see in themselves.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (06:37):
Yeah, it’s actually a story of my life. And if you look at you know, time as it’s gone by, there have been people including my parents and my siblings and all that and my good friends, but others who have come across professionally who have kind of gotten me to either either go into a different direction or launched me to a different level because of their belief in me and sometimes because of their lack of belief in me by the way. Because you certainly can learn from some of those kind of more negative experiences. I certainly feel like I’ve done that over the years. Continue to, and it seems like my attitude about business and about life has been formed through more for failure and difficult situations than from success. I really am a big believer in, you know, James T. Kirk and star Trek. He said that believe in any, you know, no wind situations or scenarios.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (07:33):
I think he said and, and I absolutely agree with that philosophy and I think that was formed from a combination of a big challenges that I didn’t know how to get through or whatever. And then just kind of learning over time that if you never give up, never surrender, you can turn anything into a positive, even the really horrible difficult challenges that you meet along the way. There are always two sides to two sides to a coin, you know? So when you’re dealing with these difficult situations like the virus issue the country’s dealing with right now, we have to also realize that the good things come out of bad. And as we as a world right now are coming together through separation, I think we’re going to have a better appreciation for the fact that I’m coming together as a very good thing and trying to find ways to come together and not just fight about everything. I remember just a short time ago, we were fighting about politics like crazy. You could, couldn’t even bring up politics without having your good friends yell at ya. And that’s mostly gone away. And I see that as a very good thing and I don’t expect that to last forever. But I want to enjoy that while we can is a one of those good things that’s, that’s happening during this difficult time. Sure.
Cliff Duvernois (08:56):
And I know that we talked about people that may have seen things in your life and for you for being in radio, is there anybody in the radio industry that you looked up to?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (09:07):
Oh, so many people people that I’ve worked with that others might, might not. No. Well because they’d been, you know, small, small town radio type pub things. A fellow by the name of Doug chap, Gus was my first general manager and just a really good man and he’s still around and that we connect every so often and it kind of keeps, it keeps on going on and on and on over over time. I’ve met so many really good people in the broadcast industry. I really miss it, frankly in so many ways. But the nice thing about working for travel Michigan, I still get to interact with the media. These people who I kind of think are, you know, my people so to speak. And it’s so connected in this world of promoting travel and tourism. It’s just so many people along the way.
Cliff Duvernois (09:56):
And you said that you were working in radio at the time, but then you started working at the Myers corporation. Yeah. What would you say or why did you decide to join Meyers?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (10:07):
Well, I actually didn’t like the fact that it was getting almost impossible to to work for a, a small local radio station and still providing, you know, all the programming support that you should be able to do for a local community. I see. You know, small town radio is being public service and, and I kind of missed that as more and more radio stations were being bought up in groups and it seems to work out pretty well now, but we’re talking years ago, I just didn’t like the way it was going. So I saw that a Meyer had a media buyer opportunity and well, I sold radio and bought radio and other media over the years. So I was lucky enough to have been hired by one of my mentors, Paul SmartVault over at the Meyer corporation in the marketing department. And while I was there doing media buys, I remember he came to me one day and he said, you know, we should be able to do something more with the co op dollars that we get from our consumer goods partners and you know, the, the retail business.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (11:06):
Quite often a retailer will get some dollars to help promote a certain product or a certain brand. So we thought about that and we developed what, what’s now known as collaborative marketing in the, in the retail world. We just kind of fell into it. We didn’t know what we were doing, but we came up with this kind of new way, this new approach where we wouldn’t only take a brand’s money and then do with with what we want. We actually listened to them and, and, and found ways to share the value in their brands with the value in ours. And in doing so, we put together promotional programs that would sell more of their product at our stores. And in fact more the entire category of the product. Like we were selling a certain cereal brand. What we found with doing the right type of, we could increase the entire sales of all cereal at the, at the store.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (11:58):
And interestingly enough, the really big promotions we could impact the sale of cereal at all retailers in the area. It was pretty phenomenal being able to learn as I went along the way with leadership from people like Paul SmartVault and Tom Villella. And Kathy Cooper was really fantastic in this having this learning opportunity. And Meyer was great to allow us to do that. And it was actually while I was at Meyer, the George Zimmerman, our former travel director came along one day. He was looking to have Meyer support, a travel Michigan and I promotion and, and we happened to meet, he told me he was looking for a number two after a few meetings and I thought, well, I’d apply for it, just check it out, just go through the process. I was happy at Meyer and then as he showed me the kind of the resume or the, the job description.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (12:49):
So while this thing’s made for me, so they hired me and then I had the predicament of living 102.4 miles away from the office and what I was going to do about that. Sweet Moses. Yeah, I know. It’s so, it’s 18 years later, I’m still taking that drive most days. So as of last October, I had driven a million miles for travel. Michigan can’t say though about that, but, but it is what it is. We love living in West Michigan, near Lake Michigan. And my, my wife made it very clear when I accepted the job that I could take the job as long as we don’t move. So we both pledged it’s all good.
Cliff Duvernois (13:26):
So you said that you were looking at travel Michigan, you were looking at the job requirements and you said, wow, this is just for me. And it seems that you’re, you’re making some pretty big leaps when it comes to your career. Like you went into radio and now you’re working at Myers and now you’re looking at travel Michigan. What made you decide to jump from one vertical to another?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (13:48):
Well, it’s interesting, you know, I think so often we think of only our, our paid jobs in in leading us in certain directions. But when I was in radio I had an interest in trying to help community. So I’d gotten involved in festivals like the coast guard festival and grand Haven and some of the Muskegon festivals as well. And over time got to understand the communication needs of various festivals, how to manage festivals and put them together and in effect, kind of became a consultant for other festivals, helping them along the way and just doing that as a hobby or as a public service, really never got paid for it, didn’t want to. I, I had a paid job and just wanted to help the local communities. And so what’s interesting, when I went to Meyer, I kept volunteering for these things and working in that area.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (14:37):
And when the travel Michigan opportunity came around, they were looking for somebody with a communication set of experiences, having some kind of an understanding of small business and large and, and how to assist businesses. And that’s what we do at travel. Michigan and the Michigan economic development corporation. People think we’re just having a good old time promoting travel and tourism, but it’s really about helping businesses do what they need to do to encourage people to travel and to go places and be hospitable to all those travelers. So that combination of experience of work and a kind of like my community volunteerism really led me to where I am today. It’s, it’s, it’s great. I think people to think that when you transition from one career path to another, that maybe there’s not a straight path there. But I was telling young kids in college when I get to talk to them, that as you’re looking at your career, you should never look at it as one straight path. You know exactly where you’re going to go because there are all these, these side roads and alleys that come along your way in. You need to be open to those possibilities and opportunities because your, you’re connected experiences and all the things that you learn along the way might lead you on another path that will be rewarding for you fulfilling and even be a good a way to make your living.
Cliff Duvernois (16:08):
It’s interesting that you say that because when I reflect back on my path and where I started out, I wanted to be an aerospace engineer so bad that I can taste it. And I did that for a number of years. But my path, my path gradually change. It shifted. Other interests popped up, people inspired me and they motivated me. And now be here I am running a podcast, getting to talk to really cool people like you. So it is, it’s weird, but it’s also awesome how life just seems to lead you down these alternate paths.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (16:40):
Well you never know. You know, you were asking me about you know, great people in radio and one of the people I had met along the way when I was at Meijer as a media buyer was a fellow by the name of Tim high. He was at WJR radio, best sales rep I ever dealt with. And he and I became friends over time and he’s the one that actually told me that, Hey, you know, you need to talk to George Zimmerman about this travel Michigan job because you know, look at this job description, you know, it really is made for you. So he was the one that first kind of opened up my eyes to that. And then I talked to George about it. You know, you just never know who you meet along the way, who will be great network connectors for you enough. Now, Tim is the a convention visitors Bureau director at the Mackinaw Island convention visitors Bureau. So you know, these, these paths do lead us in interesting directions.
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Cliff Duvernois (18:30):
Back to the show, I have to ask this question and I know that I’m probably glossing over a lot. You’re working for travel, Michigan and then the campaign or the idea for pure Michigan is born. Talk to us a little bit about the Genesis of that idea.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (18:47):
That was about 15 or 16 years ago. I’ll never forget, George came in, actually, he called me into his office and I walked in and he, he just looked at me and he said, you know, I think we’re ready. And I said, ready for what is, I think we’re ready to really to launch a brand that tells the true story of what Michigan is to the country and to really improve travel and tourism for the state of Michigan. And so we talked about it for a bit and, and, and basically he had come from Texas and in Ohio. So he, he had come to Michigan as, as somebody who had been somewhere else. And I think because he had this broader perspective, what’s really out there and the experiences that are out in the country, he knew better than somebody who had grown up here, that this is a pretty special place.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (19:39):
And so his thought was that a first call of duty is to try to figure out what our brand message is. So we brought together, I mean there were 200 people I would bet who were part of the, the discussion of what Michigan really is as a brand. You know, people quite often think pure Michigan is just a slogan or a logo, but in reality pure Michigan is just a word, a phrase that, that that represents all the good things. That Michigan is a place where the abundant natural beauty and authentic experiences and unique places and friendly people. And going through that process, we had kind of identified that and put that together in a written form of what we felt Michigan was. And then we went to advertising agencies and we ended up picking McCann Erickson out of Birmingham. They’re still our agency of record because they really got it. They really understood how to present Michigan as it truly is from our perspective, these beautiful places. So when you see those wonderful ads with voice of Tim Allen and the music of cider house rules and everything, that’s the work of McCann Erickson and they were taking kind of the blind, the brand platform that that so many people participated in throughout the state that that had an understanding what they felt pure Michigan really is or what that brand that we now know of as pure Michigan really is.
Cliff Duvernois (21:07):
Before this interview, I spent some time going back over the, the pure Michigan commercials that aired on TV and a lot of the interviews that you’ve done, and I have to say that I think that the pure Michigan campaign, in my humble opinion, it’s brilliant. You know, you somehow manage to be able to capture the wide diversity that is Michigan, the four seasons, the, the beautiful countryside, almost this nostalgic childhood that as watching these commercials, I’m like, man, I remember doing that as a kid or I remember experiencing that with, with my parents and just the whole different dichotomies that are in Michigan and the different forces that are here. And somehow your campaign made that all gel together in your campaign does just a, just does a great job of capturing all that.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (21:57):
Well, you know, the brand always has to be truthful to what it is. It’s a huge mistake when product marketers try to try to tell a story of, of a product, whatever it is, whether it’s a candy bar or in our case, a destination. When they try to tell a story that’s not true. So what we’ve always tried to do is tell that story from a perspective that we think is honest and that will tell the experience to people that they can expect to, to, to receive this type of an experience when they come here. And that’s one of the other things that I’m, I’m always telling students that advertising classes and such that you can’t fake a brand. It is what it is. Now you can, you can adjust the brand positively or negatively through the things that that brand represents, but you really can’t change it.
Cliff Duvernois (22:50):
And I agree with you completely on that one. And when we’re speaking of brands, and here’s a question that I’ve got to ask and I know it’s gotten a lot of notoriety out there, but the pure Michigan parent it’s out there. What do you think of that? What are your thoughts on that?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (23:07):
Well, you know, you’ve made it when people are commonly parroting you. And John [inaudible] put together a whole series of he, you know, his, his slant on pure Michigan in you know, as he shared on the social media and such. And the funny thing is, you know, if not for the language he uses here and there, which is a little salty here and there, I’d probably show those, those purity ads more often. And when I’m, when I’m speaking to groups, cause they’re really funny and I think he really has an interesting perspective. Michigan is, but you know, you’ve it when people are, are making jokes about you.
Cliff Duvernois (23:49):
You’ve been involved for a number of years now with the pure Michigan campaign and what your work with travel Michigan. Why don’t you share with us, what was one of the biggest challenges that you had to overcome to get this campaign up and running?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (24:06):
Well, [inaudible] originally I think people were really starving for a brand to represent the state. That was during the Granholm administration and she was coming in. She wanted to, to really make a big bold statement that Michigan’s best times had not passed it by. You got to remember it was pretty bad back then. The economy was in horrible shape. I think people had given up on their belief that a Michigan was a state worth fighting for people who lived here during that time. If they really think back, they’ll remember those times. Interestingly enough, we’ve had it so good for so long. I think people forgot those times. Yeah, I suppose that’s good to some degree, but they also lose appreciation for an effort like pure Michigan when you’ve forgotten the positive impact it’s had. So when we develop the campaign, it was obvious that this was going to be a big hit.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (24:59):
That was followed up of course by a governor Snyder who came in and actually supported the program even to a greater degree. It’s had a great impact on the economy. It’s had a great return on investment. But I think that over time, the most valuable thing about the pure Michigan program is that it did remind people that this is a pretty special place that we live in. I mean, people who are here, it reminded people who live here that we should be thankful for what we have here because this is an awesome place. And I mean, when I was in college, I remember all of my friends wanting to leave the state. They couldn’t wait to get out of the state, you know, the greener pastures and all. Interestingly enough, they’ve almost all come back now as they’re getting close to their retirement or as they are retiring because they better appreciate now who we are, what we are. So I think that the number one value of pure Michigan has been this engendering of pride because when people are proud about anything they’re involved in, they will better support it. When you believe in it, when you have pride in it, you will support it. And that’s the experience we’ve noticed.
Cliff Duvernois (26:19):
It’s interesting that you say that because after I graduated from college and I got my aerospace engineering degree, I moved to Southern California and I lived there for over 20 years. But it wasn’t a to like perhaps these, these past few years that I was traveling back to Michigan and I was starting to spend more time here that I started remembering just how special this place was and how it like really started to feel more like home. And you know, it didn’t take too long with some, you know, things that were in my personal life and whatnot that, you know, I sold my houses, moved back to Michigan and you know, here I am, but it’s just, it’s just beautiful being back in Michigan once again.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (27:02):
Well, I’m a big winter fan. My, my wife, years ago got me to a really appreciate winter. I’m, I was probably the average person who couldn’t wait for spring, but she was a big winter lover, got me out there doing things and skiing and I’m just enjoying the beauty of a, you know, a snowy day and realizing that with every good thing, there’s some challenges along the way as well, like snowplowing and such. But you know, the fact that we have four seasons and that, that we get to enjoy them is such a great thing. So we’re always trying to encourage people get out there because that’s the secret to life is don’t just sit back and complain, you know, get out there, be part of the solution instead of part of the problem. And when it comes to travel and tourism, that means get out there and enjoy pure Michigan.
Cliff Duvernois (27:52):
And that sounds like the end of a commercial right there.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (27:55):
No, no. I would would’ve said your trip .
Cliff Duvernois (28:00):
So here’s a question for you, and I’m a big fan of travel and tourism as well, but is there, throughout this campaign, is there any single point that stands out to you? And what I mean by that is where you impacted somebody or you just thought to yourself, wow, I’m really doing something special here.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (28:22):
Yeah. You know, when we were developing the brand, I spent a long time, a lot of time on George’s behalf and on our office’s behalf of being out in the industry and really trying to understand the needs of the travel industry and what the travel industry really is. You know, this whole thing about people thinking it’s just golf courses and ski resorts is aggravating for me and I don’t think we’ve done a good enough job to explain that. Travel and tourism was just about everything. It really is. As I went out there and talk to people. I remember being up in Muna Singh and met with a group up there and I said Hey guys, you know, we don’t have all the answers but I think we’re pretty good at what we do and we’re developing this, this brand and we’re inviting you to be part of the co op program and you can invest here and there and then we’ll, we’ll, we’ll match those dollars and help promote your area.
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (29:08):
And I am really excited about this and think it’s going to be great. Well, the meeting ended and I had this hotel, yay, come up to me. And he was an old Ubur, not really old, but he was a Yooper who kind of question government at all, especially from Lansing. And they said, you know what Dave, you know, I know you’re sincere, but we’ve heard this before. And you know, people come here, they say they’re going to do things and they never do. So I hope you’re, you’re different. I said, well, I’m, I am different than that. And, and I’m not saying that that your assessment about Lansing is correct, but I have to tell you that Lansing has got a, of really good people who are trying to do the right thing, trying to try to help the people of Michigan. And I’m one of those people, if you fast forward now, years later after the campaign went into effect and communities like Munising really started to notice the positive impacts. And I was in another meeting where that same fellow was there and he came up to me afterwards with tears in his eyes. He said, Dave, I’ve never told you this, but I want to apologize for my comments I made to you years ago. You said, you have saved my family business. You know, you have saved us and something I can’t forget.
Cliff Duvernois (30:20):
Sweet Moses. That is powerful. Oh, okay. So I’ve got to ask this question and, and I, as I, as I told you before, I absolutely love marketing. What does pure Michigan mean to you?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (30:39):
Well, it’s interesting. You know, I kind of know the brand points as I mentioned earlier, but pure Michigan really is in essence all that is good about the state and to some degree the other things as well because we’re not perfect. We never pretend to be a, you look at a place like Detroit and how it’s changed, but it’s, it’s never going to be perfect. Nothing is. So I think what pure Michigan is as a brand really is telling the story of a place that’s, that’s trying to be better every day and that offers all these great experiences for travelers. But we’re trying to be better and, and we have this grittiness and this tenacity to never give up. And I think that does a lot about the people who are here. And that is the essence of what pure Michigan is. It really is about the people are diverse group of people, especially the fact that we’re a two peninsula state, two big peninsula state that has a, I think communities that are pretty different in those two different areas. But still we are one and we’re, we’re thriving in many ways. Even though we’ll dealing with a big situation right now, we’ll get through that as well because that’s who we are, where people who don’t give up and we’re always the people that are part of the greater solution and whatever that happens to be.
Cliff Duvernois (32:09):
So, or for our audience, if there’s somebody out there who maybe wants to connect with you or find out what it is that you’re doing or follow you online, and what would be the best way for them to connect with you?
Dave Lorenz, MEDC, “Pure Michigan” (32:20):
Well, a couple things you can always. Is it friend me on Facebook? I was forgetting the titles are friend me like me, whatever it is this week. And so, you know, do that. I’m on Facebook, just Dave Lorens do that. I’m always happy to, to get more people to both follow me and so I can follow as well. We, we really always do say your trip begins at Michigan.org. So as you are preparing your thoughts for travel, maybe a little bit delayed this year, but we know that eventually you’re gonna want to get out there and there’s going to be a big pent up demand for travel by the way. So I’m recommending that the people connect with us through all of our social media platforms at pure Michigan, but also by going to michigan.org and making their travel plans for later on in the summer and in the fall. I think the fall is going to be the new summer of this year. Get out there and then connect with us through all these ways at pure Michigan as well.
Cliff Duvernois (33:16):
Awesome. David, I have thoroughly enjoyed this interview. Thank you so much for taking time to talk with us today. A I enjoyed it too. Thanks cliff. Hey everyone. Real quick before you bounce, if you want to join me on this journey to learn more from these fascinating community leaders, then hit the subscribe button at the top of your podcast player and I will catch you in the next episode.