Podcast & Radio – Ep125 bigLittle Wines

Mike Laing, bigLittle Wines: you know, I'm lucky.

A very lucky, obviously.

and the real like beauty of, growing grapes and making wine

is sharing it with people.

It's a social, beverage.

It's a beverage that really shines when paired with the right foods.

And, these are stories that we try to tell in our tasting room and things that

we hope unite people with bigLittle.

Hello everyone and welcome back to Total Michigan where

we interview ordinary people who are doing some pretty extraordinary

things in our Michigan community.

Today's guest definitely would fit that bill.

We are continuing, our trek around, the Leelanau Peninsula to actually

take some time to stop in at some vineyards and some pretty cool things

that are actually going on there.

Today I am sitting with Mike Laing.

He is the owner, co-founder of bigLittle Wines.

Mike, how are you?

I am doing awesome.

Thank you for asking.

Why don't you tell us a little bit about where you're from and where you grew up?

Absolutely.

My brother and I, my brother's name is Peter.

We grew up in Ann Arbor.

And, always visited northern Michigan because our grandparents, lived

part of the year in Frankfurt.

And so we had a connection to this area.

Where we're sitting is Sutton's Bay, about an hour east.

But still, similar area.

From Ann Arbor, visited this area growing up.

And, I don't know.

Our parents really created this opportunity for us to, work together,

to grow grapes and make wines here.

So your parin, so your parents were in already into wine.

they're more entrepreneurial than wine lovers.

they enjoy wine.

but my father really wanted to change careers and get into agriculture.

He's always, he was always interested in that and never really had an

opportunity until he he quit his, his career in manufacturing in the

Detroit area and said, you know what?

I'm gonna, I'm gonna do this.

I'm gonna grow grapes.

specifically I'm gonna, I'm gonna grow something, farm something.

Grapes.

Grapes were, the crop.

And, he fulfilled his own lifelong dream, of farming.

he'd always had that kind of in the back of his mind.

He just really wanted to create the life that he

yeah.

Yeah.

and then, combined with that was his vision of bringing the family together

to work together in a family business.

bigLittle was started by my brother and I to put our own

stamp on Leland a Peninsula Wines.

so yeah.

Now before this, before you got into wine,

you were actually a teacher?

Mike Laing, bigLittle Wines: I was a teacher, yeah.

So grew up in Ann Arbor.

But left to go to school in Ohio, not Ohio State, in case anybody's

got some serious thoughts about that.

went to Miami of Ohio, got a math education degree.

I taught high school math, both in, the suburbs of Chicago as well

as overseas for about six years.

And then, and then I came here to pursue the opportunity of growing

grapes and making wine with my family.

So what was the attraction?

Then if you went off and started your career and you're obviously doing

really well, you're teaching overseas.

What was the attraction to come back and say, you know what, I'm gonna hang up

my hat on education and go into wine?

Yeah.

It was a hard decision, honestly, because I had, always, I had wanted

to be a teacher, specifically a math teacher since I was 17.

before I went to college, I knew what I wanted to do.

Went, went out and did it and was rather independent.

living overseas.

had great experiences teaching both domestically and internationally

traveled a lot, so it was a big decision for me to to try this, to come home

and actually start at an entry level position because I was just establishing

my teaching career, getting going.

I wanted to try something different.

And something with my family and, it was hard at first, honestly,

but, but now it's awesome.

And I can imagine that the one thing that having a career is

you have the comfort of that weekly check coming in all of a sudden now

when you're working for yourself, all of a sudden it's like very different.

Yeah.

when I first started, so I first started working in the wine industry for Mawby.

And we spun bigLittle off a few years later.

My family was not yet involved in Mawby on a partnership level, so I was hourly.

However, I was making 10 bucks an hour doing this, that, or the other.

Odd jobs trying to prove myself.

So that was hard.

And yeah, and living at home where I was independently living by myself in

another country, traveling all over.

So it was, at the f at the beginning, it was touch and go for me.

Sure.

I was close to saying, forget this.

But then my family partnered with Larry Mawby, which was a great decision.

He's a real leader and has been for decades, in the

Michigan wine making community.

So he was a very good per person to partner with.

He was a very, good person to learn the business from.

And I slowly was given more opportunities in the cellar, as

well as on the sales side, as well as other decision making freedoms.

And, it all developed from there.

Now, when bigLittle Wines was first formed, right?

And you and your brother decided to do this, did you approach him?

Did he approach you?

How did that conversation go?

Yes.

So to give a little bit more context,

when we first entered a partnership with Larry Mawby on the Mawby

business, that was a seven year deal.

After which time he could have taken one of the brands and

kind of done his own thing.

Ultimately he, Larry Mawby, decided not to.

He decided to stay partners with us.

But we were looking at that as, an opportunity to start a different brand

that would compliment Mawby or maybe be its own thing if Larry decided to

take, some of those Mawby wines with him and, and go his own direction.

So I think for my brother and I, it was a lot of conversations.

and ultimately it was the desire to create wines that we thought

were cool styles from fruit grown in the Leelanau Peninsula.

it's kind of like our artistic outlet and as it ended up, bigLittle, big

Brother, little Brother is essentially an extension of really who we are.

So it's very easy for us to talk about the brand.

It's, all the wines are named after childhood memories.

So it's really an extension of ourselves and hopefully, some of these

wine names or labels or stories or whatever, others can relate to as well.

mix tape.

a lot of people made mix tapes.

yeah.

tree house, crayfish, dune climb.

these are things we both experienced growing up in Ann Arbor as well

as visiting Frankfurt as kids.

And memories that that, I'm sure other people have had either in northern

Michigan or in their childhood.

So yeah, it's, it's an extension of who we are.

But it's also like an olive branch for others to hopefully remember those

memories as well and connect with the brand in their own unique way.

When I pulled up here today, one of the things that I saw

upfront was a sign that said 10 years.

So it's 10 years you guys have been in business.

Yeah, it's been a little bit longer

than that, but the tasting room itself has been open for 10 years.

it's been a little bit longer than that because we started selling bigLittle

wines, to restaurants and retailers before we opened our tasting room.

But in the winter of 12, 13 we, converted a, what was formerly a

rental unit, a rental residence into our bigLittle tasting room.

there are certain things you have to make, you have to make the,

tasting room handicap accessible and re we had to redo the bathroom

and just this, that, and the other.

So we're celebrating our 10th anniversary.

congratulations.

Thank you.

I ha if I'd known that I would've brought a birthday cake or something.

' cause this is big deal.

next time, I wanna go back and explore something that you were just talking

you're relatively unknown, but as you just shared, you were out there

selling bigLittle wines to restaurants.

So how did you go about I guess positioning yourself so when you go in

there, you can let these people know, Hey, we're producing great quality wines.

We're doing it consistently.

So if you serve it to your guests, they're always gonna have

a great experience in a glass.

Yeah.

we we approached it from the angle of, we're part owners of Mawby.

This is our side project, because you'll find this all over the world where

maybe the younger generation or, a winemaker that kind of wants to do their

own thing might start their own brand.

even though they have, a day job that pays the main bills with another

brands, they'll spin off their own.

So this is pretty common all over the world.

we we, told that story like, we've learned how to make wine, from Larry Mawby and

we want to get to, we wanted to really get to know those people around the state

that were buying and selling wine because, that's what really makes wholesaling

your wines work, our relationships.

and it was important for us.

To be pretty well distributed so that we're a little more visible, to

the consumer so that, you earn some street cred that way being listed

on a, a menu of a nice restaurant or featured in a nice bottle shop.

so I don't know if that answers your question,

Oh, it certainly does.

Somewhat.

No, it certainly does.

That's great.

What I would like to do now is explore, because really coming in,

you've got an opportunity to just create any wine that you want.

why did you decide to pick those wines?

And we're gonna talk more about that in the second half of the show.

But why did you decide to pick these particular wines to make?

Well, first we have to use grape varieties that

grow well here in Northern Michigan.

So we're somewhat limited there.

For example, we cannot grow, Cabernet Sauvignon.

Or, nebbiolo or, picpoul or, I don't know, grapes like this.

We can't grow those here.

We don't have enough heat.

So we're limited there, on the varieties we can grow.

And also one.

And opportunity we have with the bigLittle brand is that if we have

excess fruit growing in the vineyards that are designated for bigLittle

wines, and what I mean by excess, so we make wine to our sales numbers.

And if we have extra, if we have too much fruit, we can channel those

grapes towards, Wines in the ma Mawby program and that's pretty unique.

Not all wineries can do that because not all wineries have that option.

so there's flexibility there.

to get to the core of your question, we wanna make wines that are

interesting to us, that we think will be interesting to others.

We want to use grape varieties that grow well here.

We wanna select blends, combine grapes that work well together.

And, we think, for example, varieties like Pinot blanc or Gamay or Pinot

noir or Pinot gri, those can go a lot of different directions.

Those could be made as nons sparkling wines.

Those could be made as Rosé.

Those could be made as Pét-nats.

Those could be made as, in some cases red wines.

So I like flexibility.

It makes sense from a business perspective.

And so we're thinking about a lot of different things when we choose blends

or what to plant, or what wines to make

sure.

For our audience, we're gonna take a quick break to think

our sponsors when we come back.

We're gonna dive into some of these absolutely delicious

wines from bigLittle wines.

We'll see you after the break.

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Hello everyone, and welcome back to Total Michigan.

I'm your host, Cliff DuVernois.

Today we're talking with Mike Laing, co-owner, co-founder of bigLittle

Wines up in the Traverse City area.

Mike.

It's that time of the show where we're gonna start talking about the good stuff,

right?

So what do you have for us today?

Mike Laing, bigLittle Wines: in front of us.

There's a wine called Mixtape.

This was the third wine we produced.

So this is 10 years of Mixtape.

And, again, bigLittle wines.

all the wines are named after childhood memories.

So mix tape.

We, we remember making, mixed tapes of carefully arranged tracks meant to,

convey a specific message to the listener.

And, For this wine, this is a field blend.

So the grapes, for this wine, of which there are several varieties used, are

grown together and harvested together.

And we use Alsatian varieties that are native to, Eastern France,

such as, Riesling, Gewurztraminer or Pinot Gris and Pinot Blanc.

And, every year that wine, this wine is a little bit different because

the crop, is not always the same.

And one variety might yield a little bit more than another, or we might

choose to pick a little bit more of this or that just based on what's

available, to go into the wine.

But it is comprised, of a Riesling, Gewurztraminer, Pinot Blanc and

Pinot Gris, those percentages vary.

It's an off, dry, very crisp, food friendly wine.

And the, the, the, the real cool factor about this wine mixtape is it crosses,

or unites the sweet and dry wine drinker.

it's not too sweet for the dry wine drinker.

It's not too dry for the sweet drinker.

It's a nice in between.

It's a nice in between.

And it really pairs well with a lot of ethnic foods.

For example, asian foods like, sushi or Thai food, Ethiopian food,

ethnic foods, also like, uh, middle eastern food or even Mediterranean.

So something with a little heat is very nice with mix tape.

Because again, it has a little residual sugar, but it's very crisp and refreshing

and it's an awesome summer option too.

It's the first wine we pour for folks.

We pour this wine, typically we pour this wine as our complimentary

pour to introduce them to, bigLittle and to talk about sweetness levels.

And, it's just a good introduction to the brand and to, white wine.

Now, before you talk about the memories that each

one of these wines like Invoke.

So I guess my question for you then would be, for this particular one,

when you were putting it together, what made you think of mixed tape?

Or did you write down the memory first and then say, okay, maybe the next bottle

we'll make, we'll call it mix tape.

How does that naming process go?

Mike Laing, bigLittle Wines: we like blends.

Not all of our wines are blends by any means, but Oh but we like

blends so mix tape by nature of that compound word or whatever.

it means, it, it means a blend, a mishmash, a combination of

different flavors and, and textures.

So, you know, the idea of a mix mixtape makes, yeah.

It makes one think of a blend and that's what this is.

And so it works.

we, we were, we look at the fruit we want to plant.

And then we look at the wines we wanna make.

And then we look at sales and we say, okay, all those things factor

into what we produce, right?

So this wine is a product of .. Four varieties that grow

really well in northern Michigan.

And, work we think, pretty harmoniously as a blend.

a lot of Alsatian wineries called this style of wine,

Edelzwicker, which essentially is, a blend of sation varieties.

You know, if you go to Alsace, and you eat the food and you taste the wines.

they work really well together.

There's a lot of rich foods, like a lot of heavy foods, very German

influenced because it's on the border.

So these crisp, acid driven Alsacian varieties aromatic whites, work with that

style of food and we can grow them here.

and the blend.

The blend works and it, again, it changes.

But if you go to Alsace, you'll see Edelzwicker style

blends all over the place.

Most producers have one,

at least one Edelzwicker right?

Excellent.

So this is delicious.

Thank you.

I'm thoroughly enjoying it.

So I guess my next question would be is, 'cause we're talking about a blend, right?

You're bringing all these different grapes together, mixed tape.

So my, then my question to you is that when you do this, obviously it's not.

let's do 25% of this one, 25%.

it's, could be a mix, it could be 70% with 30% or maybe, not even,

not that 70% with 20%, 5% something.

Yeah.

Yeah.

do you find that right balance?

So it's predominantly Riesling, so it

has to stay that way, otherwise it loses its essence in my opinion.

So it's predominantly Riesling.

And then we like predominantly, what I mean is 50% and then we layer in different

percentages of those other varieties, Pinot blanc, pinot gris, gewurztraminer.

sometimes the deer eat a lot of T's demeanor and we don't have a lot, so

we'll have less in the blend sometimes.

we use gewurztraminer for another wine called Tire Swing.

And sometimes we have to dip further into that block to, to get more of that.

Sometimes we don't make C-3 Pinot, which uses Pinot Blanc.

So we have more Pinot Blanc.

It's just a matter of, again, Producing wines based on sales numbers, based

on what's working, what's, what's not.

And moving great varieties around between different programs.

But also trying to create wines that are consistent in style year after year.

So there's constraints, but there's also freedom of, um, creativity as

certainly

Mike Laing, bigLittle Wines: within those confines.

one of the things that you mentioned before is you

talked about, you talked about how the grapes taste different year to year.

You just mentioned probably about a minute ago that you know if the

deer eat a lot of this grape.dot, so there's a lot of external

influences that impact to the grape.

So your 21 might not taste the same as the 22.

Which is gonna taste completely different than the 20.

So talk.

Yeah.

So talk to us about those environmental impacts on the

hopefully not completely different because

there, there are some threads of, consistency that we're looking for.

For example, in this wine, I'm getting a little white pepper grapefruit.

that's that's mixed tape.

Like we can, adjust that subtly.

but that's the core of the flavor right.

That we're looking for.

s, but yeah, like a cool vintage, like 18 or 19 will result in

higher acidity in the fruit.

Because as fruit ripens with heat, sugar accumulates and acidity diminishes.

if we don't get heat, we have more acidity in the fruit, which

means typically that we'll need to balance with more residual sugar.

If we have a hot year, acidity diminishes, we may be able to

make mixtape in a dryer style.

Because there's not the need to balance with as much residual sugar.

So yeah.

those are the decisions when it comes to this wine, that we're thinking

about on any particular year,

And so Mixed Tape is one that you would recommend, if you took this

to a party, this would have mass appeal.

It would, because again, it crosses, it bridges the

gap between sweet and dry wine drinkers.

The, the, the real beauty of this also is when you start pairing it

with, like I mentioned, foods that might have a little bit of heat.

But a lot of flavor and, some good richness.

this can hold up to some fat fattier foods, like what?

I don't know, like pork belly tacos or something, something like that.

Or, spicy tuna, spicy tuna roll or, you know, things like that.

So it's a crowd pleaser.

It's refreshing, it's crisp and it pairs well with food.

So this is what I'm looking for in a, an off dry white wine for sure.

Now, is this something that you only have here at bigLittle,

or have, is it available in stores?

People can go get it.

This is available across the state of

Michigan in, select retailers.

But if you, for example, the consumer needs to know this.

if there's a wine that you're looking for and you can't find it

on a store shelf, of your local retailer, you can always ask them.

You can always say, look, I was up north, or I've had this wine before,

or You've even carried this wine before, and I'm interested in it.

they'll find us.

they know who to contact to get our wines.

We're well distributed in Michigan.

But sometimes you gotta ask.

Sometimes you have to ask for things that you

Certainly

yes,

You're not gonna get it unless you ask.

'cause there are a lot of wine shops.

Throughout Michigan that carry a pretty good balance between Michigan

wines versus, I'll say national wines versus even international

Sure, yeah.

They're all over the place and, those are the, I don't know, those are the,

So anyways, yeah, it's great to have that just simply because of

the fact that you can go into the store, support local and know that you are going

to be, you're gonna pick up a bottle that's going to, like you said, appeal.

Yeah.

Masks.

we don't rely just on tasting room sales.

We rely on the support of

independent retailers and wholesalers across the state and, and, they're

great resources for the pro, the promoting of Michigan products.

And, we thank them for that.

yeah, our wines are available across the state.

If you can't find it, ask for it.

Nice.

One of the questions that I would like to, as we get to the end of the interview

here, one of the questions that I would like to ask you is that this whole thing

started because your dad gave up his job in manufacturing to come up here.

'cause he really wanted to pursue being in the wine business.

So what does he say that you and your brother have started your own vineyard?

Mike Laing, bigLittle Wines: he's pretty soft spoken.

I think he's proud of us.

I know he is.

But he, he's just, he's sort of old school in that way that, he doesn't,

um, he doesn't always express emotions, express his emotion super, super clearly.

But, we know that he is proud of us and what we're doing and what we're

doing with the fruit that he has grown.

We take a lot of pride in the quality of our products.

And we take a lot of pride in our work ethic.

And that was obviously a result of how we were raised, by both our mom and our dad.

And, and, We'll probably have a wine very soon.

We don't have anything in the works per se, but.

A dedication to, the people that made this possible for us, our

parents, and, our grandparents for, exploring Northern Michigan.

Creating, creating an opportunity for us to visit as kids and,

really fall in love with the area.

and, then, work together as a family to, to create something

cool and fun and, yeah.

it's just, it's cool.

it's a, it's an opportunity that a very small percentage of the population

are gonna have an opportunity to do.

So as I sit here and reflect on that, you know, I'm lucky.

A very lucky, obviously.

and the real like beauty of making wine and growing grapes and making

wine is sharing it with people.

It's a social, beverage.

It's a beverage that really shines when paired with the right foods.

And, these are stories that we try to tell in our tasting room and things that

we hope unite people with bigLittle.

Certainly.

Speaking of uniting with bigLittle, if somebody is listening to this

interview and they wanna connect with you, they wanna find out what

bigLittle's going on, maybe they wanna stop by your tasting room, what's

the best way for them to do that?

Mike Laing, bigLittle Wines: bigLittle wines.com is, those are

the coordinates for our website.

And we're located in Suttons Bay, five miles south of Sutton's Bay.

two thirds of the way from Traverse City to Sutton's Bay.

So that's where our taste room's located.

But yeah, bigLittle wines.com.

And again, if you can't find our wines on a store shelf, ask

the retailer, to bring it in.

And, thank you for your support.

And for our audience, you can always roll

on over to total michigan.com.

Click on Mike's interview and find the links that he mentioned up above.

Again, bigLittle wines mixed taped.

Definitely check it out.

We'll see you again next week when we talk to another Michigander, doing

some pretty extraordinary things.