Know Your Ships – Board Nerds Unite! With Roger LeLeivre

Hello everyone, and welcome back to Total Michigan, where

2

we interview ordinary Michiganders

doing some pretty extraordinary things.

3

I am your host, Cliff Duvenois.

4

And once again, I'm up in God's

country, up here in Sault Ste.

5

Marie.

6

And one of the things that I've

discovered is, in my adventures

7

running around Sault Ste.

8

Marie and capturing some really

great stories up here, every place

9

I go seems to have this one book.

10

And when I asked some people

about it, they were like,

11

obviously you are not a boat nerd.

12

Which I didn't even know was a thing,

but apparently it is a huge thing.

13

And there's people who just love this.

14

And I sought out the author and

he's kind enough to give us some

15

time today to talk about his book.

16

And you probably have heard this

before, but it's called Know Your Ships.

17

So with that being said, ladies and

gentlemen, please welcome to the show.

18

Roger LeLever.

19

How are you?

20

Roger LeLievre: am absolutely great.

21

Thank you.

22

Cliff Duvernois: Roger,

where are you from?

23

Where did you grow up?

24

Roger LeLievre: I'm I'm Sault Ste.

25

Marie, Michigan.

26

I grew up here, went to college

here, for my first year.

27

I spent my summers with my grandparents

in this very cottage that we are

28

sitting and talking to you today

on the banks of the beautiful St.

29

Mary's River.

30

Cliff Duvernois: And talking

to you today you go to college?

31

Roger LeLievre: I went to

Central Michigan university.

32

Where did you study?

33

Journalism.

34

35

And went on to work at the Ann Arbor

News and I spent thirty years there.

36

Cliff Duvernois: I What made

you want to get into journalism?

37

Roger LeLievre: I think it's in my blood.

38

I, during those tests that they have

when they check out to see what should

39

be, what should be when you grow up.

40

Yeah, you know those things.

41

I scored really high in language

in the arts and really dismally in

42

anything to do with science or math.

43

So that was pretty clear.

44

one of my favorite toys growing up was

a little, uh, toy printing press where

45

you had little pieces of rubber type.

46

And you set them and

made it cranked a little.

47

There was such a thing and I loved it.

48

I loved it.

49

I took some printing classes in college.

50

I took some in high school.

51

And when I was still in high

school, I actually started

52

working for the Sault Ste.

53

Marie paper as, as what we

called it back then, a stringer.

54

So I would cover some of the high school

events with pictures and photographs.

55

Yeah, and in high school

I was the yearbook nerd.

56

Photographer for the yearbook.

57

We had a beautiful darkroom,

which was also my locker, my

58

lunchroom, my hangout place.

59

So, definitely, definitely

in the nerddom thing there.

60

So, boat nerd, high school yearbook nerd.

61

Cliff Duvernois: Well ok so that

leads to the next question is

62

how did you become a boat nerd?

63

Roger LeLievre: Now, therein lies a tale.

64

Cliff Duvernois: Ooh, good.

65

Roger LeLievre: I love to say to people,

I'm just a boat nerd like you guys.

66

I'm just the luckiest one, the

luckiest boat nerd in the world.

67

Right.

68

And I can tell you how that came about.

69

And it's really my life story

and how things interacted.

70

Courses my life took over the years When

I was a little kid, like five or six

71

years old, it was Father's day coming up.

72

And my grandfather worked on the

coal docks here on the river, putting

73

coal on the freighters for fuel.

74

What if we get gramp for Father's day?

75

And we thought, maybe we'll get

him some pictures of some of

76

the boats to put on the walls.

77

And my mother knew about

this guy in Sault Ste.

78

Marie, whose name was Tom Mance.

79

And he was a photographer.

80

And he sold pictures of boats.

81

And he published a book

called Know Your Ships.

82

So my mom called him up.

83

And we went to his house and

sat around the kitchen table.

84

And he was pulling out these boxes of

photos that he had developed himself

85

in his own darkroom in the basement.

86

How cool is that?

87

I was hooked.

88

I, clearly I was six

years old maybe, seven.

89

and he sensed my interest.

90

And so we got the pictures

from my grandfather.

91

And Tom and I became friends.

92

He taught me how to take pictures.

93

He taught me how to develop

them in the darkroom.

94

How to file the pictures.

95

He got me a job first of all in high

school as a tour guide on this museum

96

freighter we have here in Sault Ste.

97

Marie called the Valley Camp.

98

That he ran in addition to his book.

99

And then he got me a job on the

freighters the summer I turned 18.

100

What'd you do on the freighters?

101

I worked for a freighter owned

by the Ford Motor Company.

102

And we carried eight passengers

on, on board the ships.

103

They were guests of the

company, big wigs, executives.

104

And, you know, Ford with his vertical

integration wanted to own everything.

105

Yes.

106

And he owned a fleet of ships to

bring his raw materials into Detroit.

107

Cliff Duvernois: Oh my

goodness, I never knew that.

108

Roger LeLievre: I worked on

that ship for the summer.

109

I was called a passenger porter.

110

Because we carried those

passengers, those guests.

111

So, I was kind of like the galley slave.

112

Really?

113

I carried, really, I carried all their

luggage up from down on the dock.

114

I made their beds.

115

I scrubbed their bathtubs.

116

I made sure there was enough ice at night

for all their many, many, many cocktails.

117

So this is like a cruise ship.

118

It was like, for them,

it was a cruise ship.

119

For me, it was work.

120

Ha, ha, ha, ha, ha.

121

so I did work on the freighters.

122

And I, it was good, because I

wanted to know if I liked it,

123

because I thought I might make a

career out of that kind of thing.

124

But I was also interested

in journalism as well.

125

So I spent that summer on the freighter.

126

And I liked it.

127

But it didn't hook me.

128

The way I thought it might.

129

It just didn't hook me.

130

I was promised a job back the

next season, if I wanted it.

131

So, I got off.

132

And I'm going to college and I'm

working a little bit for the Sault Ste.

133

Marie paper.

134

And the editor, a fatherly fellow

with the long, long mane of hair that

135

looks like an editor should look,

put his arm around on my shoulder and

136

says, Roger, I got a deal for you.

137

If you don't go back on the boats next

year, I'll guarantee you a job all

138

through college, all your vacations,

all your breaks, your internship.

139

If you'll just not go back on the boats.

140

how can I turn that down, right?

141

You know, I left the lakes.

142

However, the lakes never really left me.

143

Ooh, you were hooked.

144

You know, I was hooked, you know.

145

I grew up taking pictures of

the boats out here on the St.

146

Mary's River from my little boat and

reading about the lakes and all that.

147

And here I am in journalism school.

148

And I'm figuring out ways about how

I can write stories about boats.

149

Yes.

150

Some of my high school term papers

or whatever were about boats.

151

The impact of winter

navigation on the Great lakes.

152

Uh.

153

I go away to, to Central.

154

And I'm the student

professional photographer

155

there for information services.

156

So I cover all the football

games and all that stuff.

157

Guess what that gets me?

158

A beautiful darkroom.

159

Yes.

160

again, I'm continuing to foster

the interest in photography

161

and hone my skills in that.

162

Then I went to work for the Ann Arbor

News, which, you know, is a half hour

163

from the Detroit River or a little more.

164

And I spent quite a bit of time

convincing my editors that there was

165

a story going on over in Detroit about

boats that they should write about.

166

So I got sent to Detroit to cover

Jacques Cousteau when he was in town.

167

What?

168

With his Calypso going down

to the Edmund Fitzgerald.

169

I went over to Dawson Great Lakes Museum.

170

I did a story about the museum.

171

I did anything.

172

Passenger ships coming

back to the Great Lakes.

173

I wrote about all that kind of stuff.

174

I couldn't get away from the ships.

175

I couldn't work on the ships.

176

But I could sure write about the ships.

177

And I did it as much as I could.

178

Um, so, I spent a lot of time in

my working years at the Ann Arbor

179

News conniving ways to put together

enough vacation time, comp time,

180

holiday time, weekend time, to

get enough cobbled together so I

181

could come up here to Sault Ste.

182

Marie to spend some

time or, or chase boats.

183

Uh, Someplace else on the Great

Lakes over down to the Welland

184

Canal, up to Duluth, over to

Wisconsin, just, that's what I did.

185

It worked.

186

Cliff Duvernois: It's not that

you're just writing about a boat.

187

but you're focused on the

story that goes with it.

188

Where did you think

about marrying those two?

189

Roger LeLievre: Right from the beginning.

190

When I was still at Central and getting

my journalism and photography degrees,

191

I was stringing for the Saginaw News,

the Bay City Times, and a publication

192

called the Upper Peninsula Sunday Times.

193

And I was trying to figure out what I

could write about, the stories I could

194

tell that would make people who read

those newspapers and those editors making

195

those decisions, to want to buy those

stories from me as a freelance writer.

196

And you have to come at that, that

kind of story with the approach

197

of what makes this interesting?

198

Why is this more than

just a hunk of steel?

199

And you get into their story

and they have personalities.

200

Ships have a history just

like anybody else does.

201

People are curious when

they see them floating by.

202

Where are they coming from?

203

Where are they going?

204

What are they carrying?

205

They're so quiet when they go by.

206

Who's on there?

207

Those are the kinds of questions

I kind of like to try and ask.

208

Or answer.

209

It's a little world

going by you out there.

210

And all those people on those boats and

on the shore that make those boats go.

211

They all have stories.

212

And the story of the ship is

important, but the stories of the

213

people are twice as important.

214

And that's what I try to marry together

then and now and all the stuff that I

215

do with Know Your Ships and the stories

I put in there is people want to know

216

the answers to some of these questions.

217

what, what's up with all those boats

going by that are painted bright yellow?

218

Well, that's a fleet of ships from

the Netherlands that's carrying

219

windmill parts into the Great Lakes.

220

They're, They're, yellow and all

their names start with happy.

221

Happy Ranger, Happy Rover, Happy River.

222

Now see, you wouldn't know that

if you saw that boat go by.

223

But, somebody told me.

224

I was able to figure it out and

put it together and that turned

225

into a story in Know Your Ships.

226

And now people know, as Paul Harvey

used to say when I was a kid, and

227

now you know the rest of the story.

228

And I was hooked on

Paul Harvey, by the way.

229

Yeah,

230

Cliff Duvernois: Still I find his stuff

on YouTube all the time and listen to it.

231

Roger LeLievre: He did a

marvelous job of of storytelling.

232

Yes.

233

Very influential person he is.

234

Cliff Duvernois: for our audience,

we're going to take a quick break and

235

thank our sponsors when we come back.

236

We're going to talk about how Roger

got involved with Know Your Ships

237

and how he's absolutely been able

to take it to a whole new level.

238

We'll see you after the break.

239

Are you enjoying these amazing stories?

240

Michigan is full of people that are

doing some pretty extraordinary things.

241

If you want these amazing stories

sent directly to your inbox,

242

head over to total michigan.com.

243

Enter your email address

and get them today.

244

What are you going to get?

245

I'm glad you asked.

246

First, you're gonna join our awesome

Michigan community Second, you

247

will get an email that includes

the top five interviews from the

248

show sent directly to your inbox.

249

Third, you're gonna get exclusive behind

the scenes information about the show.

250

There's a lot of things that are happening

to grow this movement beyond the confines

251

of just a radio show and a podcast.

252

You'll get advanced notice

of upcoming guests and early

253

access to their interviews.

254

Now to get all these goodies, just

head over to total michigan.com/join.

255

Enter your email address and

join our awesome community today.

256

Hello everyone and welcome back to

Total Michigan where we interview

257

ordinary Michiganders doing some

pretty extraordinary things.

258

I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.

259

We're continuing our conversation with

the I guess I'd say the king of the board

260

nerds and that would be Roger LeLievre.

261

Roger, mentioned before about

Tom Mance and about how he

262

actually started Know Your Ships.

263

Now, how did you get connected with him

and start working with him on the Know

264

Your Ships books that are coming out?

265

Roger LeLievre: that's

an interesting question.

266

Here's the thing is, none of this

would be here today without Tom Mance.

267

And he was a guy who worked as a

machinist at the power plant, the

268

big hydro plant here in Sault Ste.

269

Marie.

270

And where his office was, or

his shop, looked right over the

271

boats going by in Sault Harbor.

272

And somewhere along the line he got

the idea that maybe a little guidebook

273

or a little directory to the boats

would be something people would like.

274

But he came out with this little

book called Know Your Ships.

275

276

And he did all the work in his basement.

277

He had a big drafting table down

there, and he had a darkroom,

278

and had bunches of file cabinets.

279

And he'd go down there.

280

And he'd work at it.

281

And he came up with this book.

282

Portage Avenue there by the locks,

283

they didn't see the value in that.

284

They didn't think anybody

would want to buy that book.

285

Tom would not be stopped.

286

So he went out and he got some high

school and junior high school kids and

287

gave him those old fashioned carpenter's

aprons with the pockets and some money

288

in one pocket and the book in the other.

289

And they sold them to the tourists

leaving the locks through the park gates.

290

Well, the shopkeepers saw that and saw

all those books being sold and all of

291

a sudden they were in those gift shops.

292

Seeing is believing.

293

Seeing is believing.

294

And, Sault Ste.

295

Marie is my number one outlet

today, which is not surprising.

296

Number one area of sales.

297

Tom could sell anything.

298

He was a born salesman.

299

He loved to get in his car and

drive someplace with books in

300

his trunk and just, as he would

just say, sell, sell, sell.

301

Took his family on vacations.

302

Where did they go?

303

They went where the boats

were so he could sell books.

304

Sure.

305

So I met Tom Mance when I

was about six years old.

306

And my mom knew this

guy here in Sault Ste.

307

Marie that sold boat pictures

and published this book

308

about, about the boats.

309

We wanted to buy my grandfather

some boat pictures for Father's day.

310

So we went to his house

to look at pictures.

311

He sat around the old kitchen table there.

312

And he brought out these boxes

of photos from his darkroom.

313

And I paged through them, and boy,

I tell you, I was really into it.

314

I was really into it.

315

I was into it before then.

316

But something clicked,

really, with those pictures.

317

Pretty soon I was on the phone.

318

Mr.

319

Mance, can I come over

tonight and make pictures?

320

I'm sure he was absolutely delighted

to hear that, that call come in.

321

I was under 12 in that period.

322

So I'd wander over.

323

He lived pretty close to us there.

324

I go down in his basement.

325

We shared his office and his

little darkroom and like his

326

wife's washer and dryer and sink.

327

You know back in the old days

you had to wash your film and

328

your pictures of the chemicals.

329

So we'd have to make sure his wife

wasn't gonna do a load of laundry

330

because we needed the water water.

331

So he so he taught me how to do all that.

332

He'd pick me up and say hey, let's

go see what boats are coming.

333

Pretty soon I was taking my own pictures.

334

And he put a couple of them in his book.

335

Cliff Duvernois: You must

have been very excited.

336

Roger LeLievre: I was, I was very excited.

337

I think I had my first picture in the

338

I was real little.

339

so I was just, I was taking

my own bull pictures.

340

So Tom taught me those skills that

brought me forward into my later life.

341

and helping him on Know Your

Ships, I think also triggered

342

something, in me, because I did

pursue a career in journalism.

343

So I would help him with Know Your

Ships over the years, you know,

344

with photos and corrections and

design and all that kind of stuff.

345

He, uh, got me a job on a

freighter when I was 18.

346

So that was very helpful for me

to decide my future career path.

347

348

And before he did, he set things up

so that I could take over his company.

349

And, uh, he, he didn't

charge me any money for it.

350

He just gave it to me.

351

That's incredible.

352

Yep.

353

He didn't have any idea I could do it.

354

He had faith I could do it.

355

And, you know, I was in

the newspaper business.

356

I did have some of those skills.

357

But it freaked me out because I really

felt some responsibility there that I

358

had to carry this guy's word forward.

359

Cliff Duvernois: Well just to put

this into context here, how long has

360

he been doing the Know Your Ships?

361

Roger LeLievre: it'll be our 65th year

362

what he's probably 30 years into this.

363

Roger LeLievre: Yeah, I think the 44th

or 45th edition was when he passed away.

364

Cliff Duvernois: Okay.

365

so and at this point in time

cranking out these books every year,

366

selling books every single year.

367

Roger LeLievre: And working at the

newspaper until not too long ago.

368

Cliff Duvernois: And this is he's really

built up like a cult following, you

369

know, around his books at that time.

370

So I can imagine that's the

pressure on you to keep it at

371

that, you know that high standard.

372

Roger LeLievre: Well, and then also in

373

we have now called the internet.

374

Or a computer.

375

I remember my first computer.

376

I brought the book from a yellow lined

legal pad to a computer when Tom died.

377

And if he could see how we do it

now, he would be flabbergasted.

378

Cliff Duvernois: Yes.

379

Yes.

380

So when you took over the Know Your

Ships, what were some of the things

381

that you had to keep in mind to make

sure that, that this brand would

382

not only survive, but to thrive?

383

Roger LeLievre: You know, I'm not even

sure I thought about that at that point.

384

My main concern was that I'd be able

to just get the next year's book out.

385

I didn't have any big future

vision for it at that point.

386

Okay.

387

I just, I just wanted to keep it going

'cause I thought it was important.

388

I liked it.

389

I liked the boats.

390

I.

391

So I found somebody, a fellow

boat watcher, that was a little

392

more computer literate than I was.

393

And he put all the vessel listings

kind of into a spreadsheet

394

that I could use with the book.

395

And guess what?

396

I still use that same spreadsheet today.

397

I update it every year.

398

So thanks Phil Clayton for that.

399

that.

400

And his wife Angie.

401

There's boat nerds all over the place

that have been helping me all these years.

402

I could not do it without all these folks.

403

But as far as the actual

book goes, my mom helped me.

404

Believe it or not.

405

Really?

406

Yes.

407

Uh, when I got the book, I was

working full time in my career.

408

And this book got added in.

409

And there's a lot to do behind the

scenes that no one knows about.

410

One of the things that I do not do

well is financial part, bookkeeping.

411

And my mother was retired

as city clerk of Sault Ste.

412

Marie.

413

And she knew that stuff.

414

So she did the bookkeeping

for me for years.

415

And she also delivered books

for me in the Sault Ste.

416

Marie area.

417

Because I wasn't up here at the time.

418

Cliff Duvernois: Right.

419

Roger LeLievre: So she was a big part of

the business, unsung behind the scenes.

420

And that's, you know, I got better

at it, of course, as time went by.

421

And we had new technologies

that made it a whole lot easier.

422

career came to an end.

423

The Ann Arbor News was closed by

the company that owned it out of

424

New Jersey, Newhouse Newspapers.

425

So anyway, I'm now working

on Know Your Ships full time.

426

And I've got the internet

and I've got a car.

427

So I start going around the Great

Lakes and knocking on doors of

428

gift shops and what have you

saying, Hey, I got this book.

429

And we managed to build

up our sales that way.

430

Now we sell a lot of books, not only

through those bookstores and gift

431

shops, but also, Oh, I've got a bait

shop, a restaurant, a couple of motels.

432

Uh, you know, Any place that will

stick that book there where there's

433

freighters going by, it'll sell.

434

that it will sell.

435

Cliff Duvernois: Reminds me of the

interview that I did with Jonathan

436

Rand for his Michigan Chiller series.

437

He did the exact same thing.

438

You know, wherever he could

stick his book, he would.

439

You're talking about, you're

coming out with a new edition

440

of your book every single year.

441

Yes.

442

Why?

443

Roger LeLievre: Because

there are changes every year.

444

Like what kind of changes?

445

Well, within the shipping industry,

the part of the book that I like

446

to call the directory or the field

guide that tells all about the boats

447

and who built them and how big and

who owns them and all that stuff.

448

There's always changes going on.

449

Ships are scrapped out of the fleet.

450

New ships are built.

451

Ships are renamed.

452

So that's the kind of a scorecard.

453

If you're using the book as a boat

watcher and you're sitting in your,

454

in your chair on your deck and you're

looking out the river and you see...

455

See the, uh, Arthur M.

456

Anderson go by.

457

You can pick up my book

and find out all about it.

458

So that's a guidebook.

459

That's data.

460

Kind of pretty straightforward data.

461

But there's a lot more to the book.

462

And it's because of two things.

463

One is I felt I needed to

expand the book out more.

464

But the other, other reason

is there are fewer ships now.

465

you know, one of these days there

won't be a whole lot of, much

466

left of the listings, maybe.

467

So you got to figure out what

to fill that space up with.

468

What do you fill it up with?

469

People's stories.

470

Photos.

471

More pictures.

472

Photos that you, as a boat nerd, might

take somewhere and send in to me.

473

And I'm captured by it.

474

And I put it in the book.

475

There's a lot of that.

476

I get thousands of pictures every

year from around the Great Lakes from

477

people hoping to get in the book.

478

And that's the second component

to it that makes it all the more

479

interesting to people is that

stuff in the back, I call it.

480

Stuff in the Back.

481

The Spotlight section with the stories.

482

Uh, The section about how the locks work.

483

The maps.

484

Where all the ports are.

485

What all the, uh, whistle signals mean.

486

The smokestack markings.

487

They're all there.

488

Every, every fleet has a,

a stack with a logo on it.

489

We've reproduced those

in the book as well.

490

It's not only just the Great Lakes

but the saltwater fleets that come in.

491

We have people like to

see the older boats.

492

So we have a nice gallery of the

old timers in there, pictures

493

from years and years ago with

a little bit of an explanation.

494

There's some history in there.

495

So I say we're where history and

industry meet is what we are.

496

Cliff Duvernois: You've now

gotten to a point where you've

497

actually hired help, right?

498

So you've got these two young guys

that you've hired to come on on

499

board and help you out with that.

500

I'm assuming they're

internet social media savvy.

501

Yes

502

Roger LeLievre: in their 20s.

503

Of course,

504

Cliff Duvernois: so the first part

is is is you know why make that hire?

505

And then the second question I got for

you is why is it important to reach

506

out to younger people about the boats

Know Your Ships on that whole thing.

507

Roger LeLievre: Off your first

question first Uh, why is it, why

508

did I bring Sam Hankinson and Nick

Stenstrup in, that's their names,

509

is that I'm not getting any younger.

510

I'm, gonna be 70 in a couple years.

511

I can't do this forever.

512

It's important for me to

continue not only what I've done.

513

But it's extra important

for me to continue what Tom

514

Mance started, the legacy.

515

I wanted to take the opportunity

now while I could, to make sure

516

that that happens in the right way.

517

I was handed this publication

on the guy's deathbed.

518

I don't want that to happen again.

519

I want to have a plan.

520

So these two guys, one of them

actually works in the shipping

521

industry on the shore side part.

522

He works at a port in

Michigan, Port of Monroe.

523

But these two guys have

a passion for it already.

524

They understand the importance

of people's stories.

525

If it weren't for the people,

there'd be no shipping industry.

526

They get that.

527

They get it.

528

And they get it on a deep level.

529

And also, they can write.

530

You know, Sam's a great writer.

531

Uh, They have great ideas.

532

So many ideas, I can't believe

when we have idea sessions

533

and stuff that they think of.

534

I never would have even thought of.

535

And that's what it's going to take to

make the business continue, is it's got

536

to get, continue to change with the times.

537

Like, I brought in a

computer to do the book.

538

Well, they're going to

bring in something else.

539

Right.

540

Yes.

541

They're telling me I need to

have stickers and magnets.

542

So I have stickers and magnets.

543

And they're selling them like crazy.

544

So that's why it's important

to bring those folks in.

545

And then you talked about

the other younger people.

546

And that is a particular passion of mine.

547

Someone, namely Tom Mance, back in

548

gift of giving me his company and

sharing his talents and his skills

549

and teaching me and bringing me along.

550

And that's, at this stage of my life,

what is important for me to do, is share

551

and encourage and help in any way I can

to bring the next generation either into

552

the hobby or into the shipping industry.

553

And I've done both.

554

There are amazingly a large

number of young people that are

555

really interested in all this.

556

I often, I ask them, how did

you get interested in this?

557

You live in Montana and you want to,

558

Cliff Duvernois: You're

completely landlocked.

559

Roger LeLievre: Yeah, what happened?

560

You know, they all have

their various stories.

561

The Edmund Fitzgerald is one big reason.

562

But I get calls from grandmothers

that say, my little eight year old

563

can't get enough of these books.

564

Well, that's what I like to hear.

565

Because they're coming into a

hobby that is an outstanding hobby

566

with great people involved in it.

567

Yes.

568

there's actually a network of young,

young boat nerds, young kids that

569

Sam, my, my heir in there, heir

apparent, he takes charge of that.

570

And, we all keep a lookout for when

the young people come along and we

571

say, hey, there's this, whole group

of people they're called boat nerds.

572

And, there's this network of the

younger ones that would talk to their

573

parents and we do whatever we can to

just bring them along, bring them in.

574

Cliff Duvernois: There's so much more

I would absolutely love to dive into.

575

So that just means we're going to

have to have you back on the show

576

because there is so much depth here.

577

We've barely scratched the surface.

578

So Roger, if somebody is listening to

this, they want to, connect with you.

579

They want to check out your books.

580

What's the best way for them to do that?

581

Roger LeLievre: We

have, uh, knowyourships.

582

com is our website.

583

And that's where you can order the book.

584

You can order our new magazine.

585

We just started this summer called

Extra yeah, we have a variety of of

586

cool stickers and hats and magnets

and all that kind of boat nerdy stuff.

587

Great stocking stuffers or everybody's

got a refrigerator got to have a magnet.

588

You can find all that on knowyourships.

589

com.

590

There's another place you can

go is a website called boatnerd.

591

com Which is Great Lakes Ship

Central for the internet with

592

news and, and tracking systems and

histories of boats that go there.

593

There's any number of Facebook pages

devoted to Great Lakes shipping.

594

Ships have pages.

595

Fans of the Arthur M.

596

Anderson, fans of the Stuart J.

597

Corr, they're, you can go down that

rabbit hole for hours on the internet.

598

Just check it out, Great Lakes Ships.

599

Cliff Duvernois: Roger, thank you so much

for taking time to chat with us today.

600

Really do appreciate it.

601

Roger LeLievre: Thank you, Cliff.

602

I'll go anywhere at any time and talk

to anybody about Great Lakes ships.

603

Cliff Duvernois: you, Cliff.

604

I'll go anywhere at any time

to talk to anybody about

605

Great Lakes ships.

606

Nice.

607

And for our audience, you can always

roll on over to TotalMichigan.

608

com, click on Roger's interview,

and find the links there.

609

We'll talk to you next time when we

talk to another Michigander doing

610

some pretty extraordinary things.

611

We'll see you then.