The Wicked Sister in Sault Ste Marie

I had no management experience.

2

I didn't know how to do an order.

3

I wasn't really comfortable

checking with vendors.

4

And it was, there was a lot of

stuff that needed to happen.

5

And thankfully we had a really

good staff in the beginning.

6

There were four or five people

that had as much or more experience

7

than I did and really had a passion

for helping to build a business.

8

Cliff Duvernois: Hello everyone

and welcome back to Total Michigan,

9

where we interview ordinary

people doing extraordinary things.

10

I'm your host Cliff DuVernois.

11

I am up in Sault Ste.

12

Marie, and one of the restaurants that

I always make it a point to visit when

13

I'm up there is the Wicked Sister.

14

And I come here because not only is

the food good, but the service is good.

15

And if the food is good and the

service is good, then the person behind

16

it must be doing something right.

17

Because having a restaurant is

definitely not an easy business to be in.

18

Today I'm sitting with Cathy Howell.

19

Owner of the Wicked Sister in Sault Ste.

20

Marie.

21

Cathy.

22

How are you?

23

Cathy Howell: I'm wonderful.

24

How are you?

25

Cliff Duvernois: I'm doing

awesome Thank you for asking.

26

Why don't you tell us where you're from?

27

Where did you grow up?

28

Cathy Howell: I grew up here.

29

Born and raised.

30

So pretty quick story, but

I, My family's all from here.

31

We're a huge family.

32

My dad is one of six.

33

My mom is one of five.

34

And most people settled here.

35

So a huge extended family.

36

I moved to Chicago to go to school.

37

I lasted a semester because theatrical

set design apparently wasn't really

38

what I needed to be doing with my life.

39

And a few years later,

I moved to Baltimore.

40

Because I needed to spread my wings.

41

And when you have family that's

involved with the police department

42

and involved with all of these things

within the community I really wanted

43

to be able to make my own mistakes

and not have to answer to my parents

44

unless I made the national news.

45

So it was a good place to

be for, probably three, four

46

years, I think I was out there.

47

Cliff Duvernois: When you talk about

spreading your wings in Baltimore,

48

what was it you were doing there?

49

Cathy Howell: I waited tables.

50

I was hanging out my, one of

my roommates was a musician.

51

So I spent a lot of time at open mics.

52

And he was also an

apprenticing tattoo artist.

53

It's like all of the things that

you do in your twenties that you

54

might be don't love as an adult.

55

Cliff Duvernois: so

you're waiting tables, but

56

Obviously now we're fast forwarding

and you're owning a restaurant.

57

So.

58

Is being a restauranteur just something

that's always been in your blood?

59

Is it something that you stumbled into?

60

How did you get on this path?

61

Cathy Howell: I started working at

Antlers, here in the Sault, when I was 14.

62

And I loved it.

63

I loved the speed and the fast pace.

64

And the people that worked

there, the people that came in.

65

I loved it.

66

By the time I was 16, I distinctly

remember chatting with Phyllis Kinney,

67

one of the owners, and she was like

what do you want to do when you grow up?

68

And I said, I want to own a restaurant.

69

And she said, oh, honey, no.

70

And And, right, because I

saw how difficult it was.

71

so I tried to do other things.

72

I went to school to be a

theatrical set designer.

73

I went to school to be

a social worker teacher.

74

And none of them fit.

75

I kept always going

back to the restaurant.

76

And I thought, why not?

77

So I figured what I would end up doing

is having a career, and then retire,

78

and then this would be my hobby.

79

what was the Gin Mill, at auction.

80

And he gave it to my mom and three aunts.

81

They had minimal restaurant experience,

so they tapped me to be their GM.

82

And I guess the rest is history.

83

And they really didn't

love it the way that I did.

84

So after a few months they started talking

with Grandpa and got his blessing that

85

I would buy it and be the sole owner.

86

And then they could all

go back into retirement.

87

Cliff Duvernois: Let's take a

step back here for a second.

88

Because you were talking about

how you were working at the

89

restaurant, the Antlers in St.

90

Marie.

91

And you really started

to fall in love with it.

92

What was it, about the restaurant

business, that you fell in love with.

93

Cathy Howell: What I loved the

most at the time was this like

94

in spirit of hospitality, right?

95

This welcoming people in.

96

And I think what's really exciting

to me is that the restaurant

97

industry seems to be in this

really weird spot of, we fill a.

98

basic human need, right?

99

Everyone needs to eat

and nourish their bodies.

100

We just provide, a convenience level

to it, or maybe an experience to it.

101

And having that having that really just

brought me so to welcome people in.

102

And even today, like welcoming

people in and this is our house.

103

We spend more time here, waking

hours than probably anywhere

104

else, you know in our daily lives.

105

So to have that sense of pride and

to welcome people in and to make

106

them feel appreciated and comfortable

is sometimes a challenge, but

107

it's a really great place to be.

108

Cliff Duvernois: Grandpa

gets the place at auction.

109

And your mom and her

sisters are running it.

110

You're the one that clearly

shows a passion in this.

111

So the question I got ultimately

for you is, 'cause you talked

112

about your background there.

113

How is it that you step up and start

running a restaurant without really,

114

you worked at a restaurant, but

115

Cathy Howell: It was trial by fire.

116

Cliff Duvernois: Okay.

117

All right.

118

Cathy Howell: Before Wicked opened

the highest position that I had

119

held was I was the lead server.

120

For maybe six months in Baltimore.

121

That was it.

122

I had no management experience.

123

I didn't know how to do an order.

124

I wasn't really comfortable

checking with vendors.

125

And it was, there was a lot of

stuff that needed to happen.

126

And it was just little by little.

127

And thankfully we had a really

good staff in the beginning.

128

There were four or five people

that had as much or more experience

129

than I did and really had a passion

for helping to build a business.

130

And if you've never been in

that startup situation, it's

131

either for you or it's not.

132

Because we changed things so

quickly to go, oh, we thought that

133

was gonna work, but clearly no.

134

Let's try this, plan B or C or and so on.

135

And really, my cousin Char she's been here

since day one and started in the kitchen.

136

I'd never cooked before.

137

So I stood in her way until

she taught me to cook.

138

And we got our butts handed to us,

quite a few lunch shifts right?

139

Mostly because she's, can't carry a

team of two and I wasn't that great.

140

And Bob's been here

141

Those are my two longest

running employees.

142

And we just had a lot of

people that cared and helped.

143

And I think that's what started

this internal culture at Wicked.

144

Where we wanted everybody to be successful

and I didn't always have the answers.

145

And I wasn't too proud to tell

people I don't know what to do.

146

So we would come together and

say, okay what seems to be the

147

best solution to this issue?

148

And that really worked.

149

And it helped and it ingrained

people into Wicked and it made it

150

this family and this amazing thing.

151

It worked.

152

I don't know if I had to do it over

again but I would know more, right?

153

But that's how it happens.

154

And you just have to, I think, keep

pushing on and not be so proud that

155

you pretend to, have all the answers.

156

Cliff Duvernois: you come here and you

start working did you have a vision for

157

what you wanted this place to really be?

158

Or was it something that just

organically evolved over Time?

159

Cathy Howell: So I wish that I had

this like really amazing answer of

160

Yes, this is exactly what we wanted.

161

And so during the planning process

after grandpa had bought the bar.

162

And we spent about a year,

renovating it and had to wait

163

for licensing to come through.

164

So we had lots of time to think and plan.

165

And if you think that my grandpa and

his girlfriend were in their 80s at

166

the time, and I have aunts and uncles,

parents that run, 70s to 50s, and then,

167

I was in my 30s, I have children, I

have cousins that are in their 20s,

168

it really became this chaotic beehive

of everybody wanted something right?

169

My grandpa wanted the 75

cent Bud Light shells.

170

And just a good old fashioned

roast beef sandwich because

171

you can't get that anymore.

172

And I'm like maybe

there's a reason for it.

173

But okay, under consideration and

whitefish croquettes were thrown

174

out and you know It's just all of

these ideas that you know really

175

need It was really frustrating, I'm

not gonna lie, it was really hard.

176

But it, it really became

this place for everybody.

177

Because we had so many different

generations that wanted something that

178

represented them or something that made

them happy that we just cast a wide net.

179

And it became this place for everybody.

180

I think even now today we try and be

very inclusive and welcome everybody.

181

So that's how it all came to be.

182

And then really in terms of the menu

we, we had to start with what we knew.

183

We couldn't be these this

great culinary experts.

184

Because I didn't know I know I couldn't

teach somebody how to cook a steak, right?

185

I couldn't cook a steak.

186

And so we really started with a very

basic menu with just some really

187

unique flavors, some really unique

ingredients, but when you break it

188

down, for a very long time, we were

a burger and chicken sandwich place.

189

Cliff Duvernois: When you first

got this place, it was just a bar.

190

And then at some point you

added the kitchen on the back.

191

When you add a restaurant on the back,

you're adding a whole level of complexity.

192

You're bringing in all of these

other state organizations.

193

You've got inspections that go on.

194

You got to make sure that your food

is good and the food typically doesn't

195

have a high margin like booze does.

196

Why did you decide to add the kitchen on?

197

Cathy Howell: So I think, and just

from what I've witnessed, in the

198

community, the bar industry's dying.

199

And it's been accelerated,

I think, even since COVID.

200

still, I was trying to convince my

201

grandpa into investing into putting in a

kitchen because it's not cheap and it's

202

It, a bar brings a different clientele.

203

And I didn't know that we would be this

high end cocktail place, we were just,

204

we would have served mixed drinks and

some beer And that didn't feel right

205

and it didn't feel very profitable to

me for what we were doing and I worked

206

at a restaurant, at Zorba's, for nine

years off and on, through marriage and

207

babies and all of this, and I loved it.

208

So if I was going to jump on board

and leave a job that I loved, I

209

really wanted to make sure that it

was going to be a stable career.

210

And I didn't see that

happening without a kitchen.

211

Cliff Duvernois: How basic was

your menu when you first opened?

212

Cathy Howell: It wasn't I'm trying

to think of what some of our original

213

things where we started with like

a Maryland style crab dip, right?

214

Because we knew that the Drunken Cow

which has been a signature number one

215

seller on our menu since we opened.

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And it's beer, cheese and

bacon and beer onions.

217

We did a Dirty Uncle, which is

still on our menu, fondly named

218

after one of my dirty uncles.

219

We have a bourbon chicken sandwich that we

retired and then brought back after a few

220

years where it was bourbon sauce, or we

were doing our signature barbecue sauce.

221

So we were really taking

comfortable, familiar items and

222

then just putting a twist on it.

223

And even today if people come in and

they're like, I just want a cheeseburger.

224

Yes, that is okay.

225

We judge a little bit but it's fine.

226

Cliff Duvernois: Right.

227

Awesome.

228

it's fine

229

For our we're I gonna take a quick

break and thank our sponsors.

230

When we come back, Cathy's going to

continue to share with us the interesting

231

journey of the Wicked Sister and the

impact it's having on the local community.

232

We'll see you after the break.

233

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Hello, everyone, and welcome back to

Total Michigan, where we interview

251

ordinary Michiganders doing some

pretty extraordinary things.

252

I'm your host, Cliff DuVernois.

253

Today, we're sitting with Cathy Howell

of the Wicked Sister up in Sault Ste.

254

Marie.

255

And Cathy, before the break

we were talking about the very

256

interesting journey that the

restaurant has had over the years.

257

And how you came in and started

really making the place your own.

258

Talk to us about how you come up with

the menu items that you have on here.

259

Talk to us about how you make that happen.

260

Cathy Howell: In the beginning,

it was, myself and Charlene and,

261

the handful of cooks that we had

in the back and it really started

262

out with, geez, this sounds good.

263

Let's try it.

264

And that was successful.

265

and she started just as a line cook.

266

And then we grew in need and then had

the budget to hire a kitchen manager.

267

And she's since been promoted to chef.

268

And she does an amazing job of

collecting ideas from everybody else.

269

Or, again, geez, this sounds good.

270

And that's really where

our menu comes from.

271

Kat just has this amazing ability

to do really wonderful things

272

and fancy techniques that we

really weren't able to do before.

273

So we do have steak on the menu now.

274

Because she is able to train

people to cook a steak.

275

So having her on board has really

taken our menu to the next level.

276

And because she's a fantastic leader and

is doing all these creative things that

277

we've had really high quality people

come in and want to work underneath

278

of her, which has then bolstered

kind of the, I call them the nameless

279

faceless army in the back that They

just, they do such amazing things.

280

Things I didn't think were

ever going to be possible here.

281

Just a complete game changer

on, on what we're able to do.

282

Cliff Duvernois: Why did you

make the decision to hire a chef?

283

Cathy Howell: So I think it really

came down to a business decision.

284

In I'm a front of house girl, right?

285

So I'm not so much a bartender.

286

But that's where my domain

is in front of the house,

287

greeting guests, waiting tables.

288

That's what I know.

289

It's what I love.

290

Back a house.

291

It's not, I'm not strong at it.

292

And I don't love it the way that

other people like cat and people that

293

are used to a kitchen that she does.

294

So it really came down to the

business has grown to a point that I

295

can't effectively manage both sides.

296

And I need to bring

somebody in to do that.

297

So she became that's just how

it started and no regrets.

298

She was 22 I believe, when I

hired her as a kitchen manager.

299

She has blown my mind on all of

the things that she's capable of.

300

And the food is outstanding.

301

But really, truly her as a leader has

really, she turned kitchen morale around.

302

And it's just been, it's

been a really great thing.

303

Cliff Duvernois: You talked about,

business was doing good so that afforded

304

you the opportunity to hire, a kitchen

manager, hire a chef, you were talking

305

about how it was starting to really

grow and you couldn't manage the front

306

of the house and the back of the house.

307

What do you attribute this growth to?

308

Cathy Howell: Ooh I think, right,

I think it's the idea that we

309

offer great food, we offer great

service, so you don't have to choose.

310

I've been victim where I go out

to eat, and I might really love

311

the food, but I don't really

love the service, or vice versa.

312

And I think here you really

truly get both sides of it.

313

And you get this experience of, we, we

can have beer, we have a great wine list,

314

we've got really interesting cocktails.

315

But also we have food

that's consistently good.

316

And one of the things, I think

that's been the biggest compliment

317

that I've heard several times is

that people ask if we're a chain.

318

Because not only did they come

in once and they loved it.

319

But then they came back and

it might be a year later.

320

It might be three months later and

they had similarly a great experience.

321

And they said, we've only

seen this happen in chains.

322

And I'm like no, I would

love to be a chain, but no.

323

Cliff Duvernois: And then another thing

too that pointed out is I was out with

324

dinner with some friends the other night

and we were talking about How it seems

325

like when it comes especially when it

comes to restaurants that if the owner

326

is, absent or really doesn't care then

it seems like the employees don't care.

327

And you have a really substandard

experience when you do that

328

Do you agree with that?

329

Cathy Howell: Oh 100%.

330

And it's so it's so amazing.

331

I went to South Dakota in

August for a family wedding.

332

I was gone for 10 days.

333

While I was at the dude ranch

where the wedding was, I had no

334

internet and I had no cell service.

335

And I knew going in that's

how it was going to be.

336

And I just told him you guys are going

to have to figure it out because I

337

can't, you won't be able to call me.

338

Wait, you come back as a

business owner after 10 days.

339

And you think, what fires am

I going to have to put out?

340

There was nothing!

341

Nothing!

342

When we finally got into cell

service and we're on the drive back.

343

And my phone's not blowing up.

344

And I think exactly did the place burn

down and everyone just walked away.

345

Like what is this?

346

No, it just ran business as usual.

347

I actually think it runs a little

bit better if I'm not here.

348

I tend to overthink things.

349

I tend to get a little bit anxious.

350

And everybody does care

they have a vested interest.

351

So it is as a business owner one of

the coolest things to have a group We

352

usually have about 24, 25 employees

on staff That come in every day and

353

they give a hundred and ten percent.

354

And they honestly they shame me as a

former employee because I don't know

355

that I always did that And they're

just I think the world of them I would

356

walk through fire for every single

person that we have on a schedule.

357

But they really truly are amazing.

358

And if something's not right or if they

think that we can do something better,

359

Most of them feel very comfortable coming

to me and saying, Hey, could we, what do

360

you think about doing it this way instead?

361

And I love it because I

still, we're eight years in.

362

I still don't have all the answers

and right day in and day out.

363

These are my people that are customer

facing that are in the trenches working.

364

I've been able to work my

way into more of a back end,

365

marketing, accounting position.

366

So I still want to hear all those things.

367

Because if we've had 20 guests come in the

last week asking for a beer that we don't

368

have, maybe we should bring in that beer.

369

Cliff Duvernois: One of the things

too that I wanted to talk about is,

370

a very concerted choice, decision to

really focus on getting customers who

371

are local versus relying on tourists.

372

Talk to us about that business decision

because it is a business decision.

373

Your marketing and

everything is impacted by it.

374

Cathy Howell: Yeah, so I think that

tourism is a really volatile place to be.

375

And in the Sault in particular

June, July, August, even September.

376

Those are good months because

people are driving up here and

377

spending time in the community.

378

But what happens in October through

May, and there's not the same amount

379

of people and I grew up here I'm,

really proud of the community.

380

I'm proud of what we've

done to the community.

381

And so it's really I really want

to support our locals and I want

382

to say thank you to that by really

saying you're the people that we find

383

I don't want to say of value.

384

But you're the people that keep us open.

385

You're the people that

make Wicked possible.

386

So that's just what we do.

387

And also in the summer, sometimes tourists

are very grouchy and not, and I have

388

three kids, so I understand that driving

in a car and it's a lot and whatever,

389

but like our locals are just like really

nice And laid back and they're fun.

390

And it's fun to get to know people

and have that relationship with them,

391

where you see them week after week.

392

And you can say, Hey, you

had this big, interview.

393

What, how did that work out?

394

Did you get the job?

395

Or, Hey, I see it's your birthday.

396

Happy Birthday.

397

And it's, I just like it.

398

It really, I think, goes back to

embracing that hospitality, and

399

this sense of the kitchen table.

400

I always grew up around my

grandparents kitchen table.

401

And we would eat, and drink,

and snack and just, share

402

memories or experiences or ideas.

403

And that's really what I like about here

is I think we're doing the same thing and

404

kind of modeling that aspect of something

that's near and dear to my heart.

405

Cliff Duvernois: You made a comment about

things that you're doing in the community.

406

Talk to us about that.

407

Cathy Howell: So we just finished

our ninth annual Battle of the

408

Breweries which is something that

409

And the idea behind it is that all

of our proceeds for the event go

410

to benefit our hospice of the U.P.

411

Which is, I think, the last

free hospice in Michigan.

412

I think hospice is an amazing cause

and it touches a lot of people.

413

Two of my grandparents

have gone through hospice.

414

And I just don't know how

that grieving process would

415

have went without them there.

416

I feel very strongly about it.

417

I am so proud to be in a position

that we can do something to

418

support such an amazing cause.

419

Battle of the Breweries turns

into, we have eight taps for beer.

420

And, we invite two breweries.

421

They each get four taps.

422

And Cat comes up with this

beautiful menu, four courses.

423

And we give the brewers the menu.

424

And they do whatever they

want to bring four beers.

425

We have 80, we cap out at 80 tickets.

426

We sell tickets for 50 a piece.

427

Each person gets four tickets to vote.

428

And so we count tickets

at the end of the event.

429

And the person that has, the

brewery that has the most tickets,

430

they're our champion and they get

invited back the following year.

431

But it's a great, It's a great night.

432

We're really fortunate that the community

donates to a live auction which Tim

433

and Lindsay Ellis at Eagle Radio

hosts, they're our MCs for the night.

434

And So this year we raised between

our bar sales, the servers donated

435

their tips back to hospice it's a

lot of smaller buckets and it all

436

pulls together, I think we raised

almost $10, 000 this past year for it.

437

And it's a ton of fun.

438

In the second year, we had this

they're a group of retired guys that

439

all get together and play poker.

440

Kelly Avery, they were dancing in

441

Dancing with the Stars for hospice.

442

We partnered with them as the fundraiser,

and all of their poker crew came in

443

and helped us pour beer and run food.

444

And they had so much fun that

they come back year after year.

445

So I have a hundred percent

volunteer staff that night.

446

And then, but we also have

community members that just come

447

in and volunteer to do that.

448

So it's always great to see the

guys and they've done it so long

449

now they're like same as last year.

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And I'm like, yep.

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Cliff Duvernois: That's perfect.

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if somebody's coming here, if

they've never been here before, what

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would be like a dish or two that

you would recommend that they try?

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Cathy Howell: Oh, so I am

personally a little sick of

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eating the Construction Dip.

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However, I feel like that is

quintessential Wicked Sister

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is this construction dip.

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Garlic, bacon, cheesy goodness.

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It's like we serve it with our house

cooked chips and soft pretzel bites.

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And it is, it's delicious

and it's addicting.

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So that I think, if you've never

been here before and you're not

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afraid of some like good cheesy

comfort food, that has to be there.

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And then, I think, so we run

these seasonal menus that are

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usually six to eight weeks long.

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I would pick something off of that.

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We're coming up on a new one.

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It'll hit Wednesday, as long as

everything goes according to plan.

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And so wait.

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If I was coming in next week,

I would get the Bistro Steaks.

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So they're steak medallions,

grilled to order.

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Kat made this amazing bourbon

cream sauce to go on top of it.

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And it's just like delicate, but all

the flavors come through on it, and it's

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such a wonderful complement to the beef.

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And then it's baby baker potatoes, in

a green garlic butter, which if anybody

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was familiar with the green garlic

steak, it is the exact same butter.

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It was so popular that we're

like we've got to use it again.

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So potatoes will be tossed in that

and then some grilled asparagus.

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That's and then we're gonna

have, oh, jalapeno popper dip

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is gonna come up on the menu.

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That's, I'm a sucker for jalapeno poppers.

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So I might actually skip construction

dip to get the popper dip.

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So there's gonna be a

spicy chicken sandwich.

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I really don't think you can go wrong.

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Even if you're vegetarian, our black

bean burgers, we make them in house.

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And they're not frozen.

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so there's really something I think

for everybody except for vegans.

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We're not very good at

vegans, Like you can eat here.

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You just don't have a lot of choices

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Cliff Duvernois: if somebody is

listening to this, and they want to

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come by, check out the Wicked Sister.

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Maybe find you online.

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What's the best way for them to do that?

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Cathy Howell: Wicked Sister

Sault S-A-U-L-T dot com.

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And we just redid our website.

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So I'm pretty proud of it.

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I really didn't do much.

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Somebody else made it all because

I can't be great at everything.

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And but beautiful pictures of our food.

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So if you were curious to see what it

looks like yeah, we're still working on

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getting all of the pictures up there.

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But we try really hard to keep

that moving along so you can

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see what you're getting into.

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Cliff Duvernois: Right.

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Cathy.

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I'm now hungry.

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Cathy Howell: EXcellent.

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I know.

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We're almost open.

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Cliff Duvernois: Thank you so much

for taking time to be with us today.

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I really appreciate it.

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Cathy Howell: Thank you!

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This was a ton of fun.

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Cliff Duvernois: Yes, it was.

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And for our audience, you can always

roll on over to TotalMichigan.

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com, click on Cathy's interview, and get

the links that she mentioned down below.

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We'll see you next week when we

talk to another Michigander doing

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some pretty extraordinary things.

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We'll see you then.